Decline in male intimacy - Western world issue?

Knowledge
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So been talking to a few of my friends recently about a site I stumbled on (Art of Manliness) which has some really good articles. One of the posts that really challenged me was this one:

Bosom Buddies: A Photo History of Male Affection

Basically, the author provides a historical overview of male affection and friendship and suggests that there is a decline in how men communicate compassion and care for one another. I’ve read this elsewhere before as well and wondered what others thought about this? And whether this ‘loss’ might contribute to addiction/s forming in men…

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(Interesting article, by the way!)

I mean, perspectives and cultures around relationships, gender identities, sexualities, etc. affect us all. When they are unhealthy, damage is caused, for sure, both to those directly affected as well as people around them due to the resulting adaptive behaviours.

The cause of addiction is so varied between people and complicated in general, it seems impossible to say how much of a role is played by this particular issue overall. But it could be informative to consider for oneself in their own life, certainly.

I know that traditional societal views of masculinity have caused a lot of damage in my life. I’m not sure I’m prepared to get into the details here. I also know that I always felt like I lacked any real intimacy in all my male friendships growing up. But I don’t see a direct connection to addiction in my case (indirect connections are many and impossible to meaningfully quantify). It was simply one factor of many affecting my path through life.

There are so many things that could be involved somehow in the background of the life soup that became my addiction, and I won’t have all the answers I want. However, I don’t need to know those things to know the way forward, so I just go forward and try to let it rest. It’s good to learn about yourself, but don’t let it distract you from the more immediate goal: to get and stay sober.

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Thanks for sharing James. Yeah totally agree that everyones journey and causes is different. I guess, I was just wondering what impact a potential decline in male intimacy has had on society as a whole but also specifically addiction and addiction related issues.

In my experience vulnerability in male friendships is challenging. It has become easier over the years but often feels like there are additional barriers to vulnerability in platonic male-male relationship compared to male-female relationships.

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Being a girl I dont have much to add. Some of those old photos are so sweet, and definitely something you dont see nowadays. But after dating 3 men, who all struggled with addiction, I noticed none of them had very close friendships with other men. If they did, it was mostly other troubled and addicted men that they only really partied with. Hearing the phrase ‘no homo’ being thrown around too much. A lot of guys seem to turn to anger when they hear another refer to them as gay, obviously joking, and I dont think that’s right. I feel it makes guys feel they have to be strong(‘manly’) always and that being vulnerable isnt okay even tho everyone can and should be at certain times in their life without the fear of being put down for it. Being a girl is tough for so many reasons but I think its equally hard being a man for so many others. Interesting share :slightly_smiling_face:

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I personally feel that it depends on your current situation in terms of need and comparison.

I have lots of friends who do well for themselves and therefore we don’t ever butt heads.

I have other friends who aren’t doing so well and they always find a trigger to fight about, “oh you left the hood, you fake.”

I believe it comes down to simply this,

When you are at the gym, you get along with people lifting as much weight as you or at least doing their best.

The ones you don’t get along with are those side eyeing you because they are lifting the 10s in the corner

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Those black and white pics could easily be any of my dudes. My male friends and I have always been huggers, tell each other we love each other, etc, as well as our yearly “Best Friends Day”, which usually involves a limo, lunch, and mani/pedis…which is hilarious considering we’re all tattooed “rocker” type guys. Two friends of mine have messaged each other every day for the past three years, to say they loved each other.

I agree that there definitely is a decline in male intimacy overall though. I think there’s just this self-imposed societal stigma that men can’t be close friends…not to mention that bullshit that I’ve seen guys pull when they say something to another guy and follow it with “no homo”…GTFO with that idiotic shit.

Bit ranty, sorry.

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It’s good to hear a female perspective on this and yeah I think I have similar observations. Some of my friends in secondary school and college used the ‘no homo’ comment often. The rise of the bromance has also been a desire to reclaim plantonic male friendships.

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You sound like you got some amazing friends man just not convinced that is the norm which is a real shame.

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Yh I see your point. I guess what I question is the depth of general male friendships in society today… and I wonder how healing it would be for some many men in society to be able to have deep and meaningful relationship where they can be themselves with other guys.

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I’ve had this just once in my life, for a limited time, and it deteriorated. While it was deep and meaningful and I often felt like I could be myself, it was unhealthy. It became more harmful and involved more conflict over time, and it simply didn’t last. It should be said that my behaviour in addiction also contributed to the damage done. But it felt like we had to make it all up as we went along, neither of us had had a friendship like that or knew of another male friendship like that. It made it feel like we had something abnormal, something we had to hide from others because they wouldn’t understand, or mistake it for a romantic or sexual relationship. Social intimacy also needs boundaries permissive enough to allow its expression, which many men don’t have. It’s just the norm to wall it out, especially in the presence of others. So in this friendship, we were able to relax the boundaries to allow freer friendship, but we also didn’t redefine them well after doing so. Codependency then developed, and that was the beginning of the collapse.

In other relationships with male friends, it’s been so shut off. It’s only ever been meeting in mixed groups, gaming, sports, or drinking. In recent years I’ve finally felt like I can invite a guy out for coffee to chat and not worry that they’ll read too much into it, it’s normal now. But really? It took this long for me to do something so simple and normal? And never does it feel like I can talk about anything unless we’ve established it as a common interest. Not life stuff or emotions or dreams and stuff. I feel like I can bring it up safely sometimes, but I expect trivial acknowledgements and the other guy not knowing what to say. And I feel like I’m oversharing and making things awkward. I don’t feel that way when I talk with women who I feel similarly acquainted with.

Interestingly enough, it’s been different online since I joined TS and started getting to know people (I hadn’t done much online social stuff before). I have male (online) friends now that I feel like I can be totally myself with, have high quality deep conversations about anything. Is it that I’m just meeting the right people now? Is it something about it being online? Is it something about being part of a community (TS) that normalizes deeper connections? Who knows.

And this topic brings up interesting side questions too. How much of what I experience is self-inflicted in the form of anxious assumptions, a fearful lens, and confirmation bias? Are we perhaps defeating ourselves by never being the first to take a risk and model the relationship we want before the stars align to make us comfortable doing so? (a terrifying idea)

And how much is entrenched? Rules on social acceptability, on what you can do without raising eyebrows, lack of experience creating and communicating emotional intimacy with others, expectations from cultural gender roles? There’s a lot to unpack and I don’t want to derail this with the side questions, but it was all stuff that came to mind.

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A lot of what you shared resonates with my personal experience and I don’t doubt others on here would probably say the same thing.

You also raise some good questions, the male anxiety in male-male friendships is very real and undermines true transparency or authenticity which one could argue limits safe spaces for men to ask for help.

I’ve found that it’s important for me to be intentional in building authentic relationships even at the risk of being misunderstood. Not just for my own wellbeing but for other guys too. There is real courage in being open and so many guys struggle to share with other guys. Which often puts pressures on intimate partners.

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I just want to chime in to say I appreciate this thread and the positive interactions. Lots to reread and consider.

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Hi @Natelm, great thread. Me personally I have been reflecting in these early days of my sobriety and I’ve realized that I spent most of my teen years and early adulthood escaping - through addictive, self-soothing behaviours - instead of engaging with my feelings & life in healthy, growth-oriented ways.

One result of this is that I have few close friends, male or otherwise. However I am developing some close friendships with men in my addiction recovery group, and I feel very safe with them because we have been through very similar addiction journeys. One in particular I have developed a strong connection with, and we reach out to each other by phone and text often, and share our feelings.

I am not sure if my history of disconnection from men is more a function of my addiction, or of a culture of men being silent, unsure even if what they feel or how to articulate it or what it means in practical terms. Men in general seem to have less of a widespread practice of sharing emotional conversations, emotional moments, vulnerability and mutual emotional support and processing. I personally believe unacknowledged, unempathized, unresolved emotions play out in the world in a lot of the dark, even criminal behaviour we see men doing. Many men have no idea how to go about channeling their emotions in healthy ways, so they bury them or ignore them. And then it becomes a minefield primed for angry explosions or creepy obsessions.

I believe actively cultivating friendships among men, between men, and making these friendships places where we communicate actively, acknowledge our fears, insecurities, vulnerabilities, and senses of unworthiness (among other unsettling emotions), and accept one another as growing, incomplete beings - I believe this act is one of our most powerful tools for reducing violence in the world.

So many men are scared and angry and uncertain. But so many of the models of manhood in our media, our stories, our books, our songs, our wishes and hopes - so many of these models are (at least on the surface) assertive, stable, steady. I’m not sure even how a man feels uncertain. How does a man look when he’s uncertain? How do we respond to him? How do we be brothers to a man who feels weak? How do we wrap him in care?

I don’t know the answers to these questions. I am working on it. But I believe very strongly that the answers will change our world for the better. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Excellent thread, thanks for bringing this up. I think this is a topic that isn’t talked about nearly enough.

This is a big problem, and I think it’s a root cause of many men’s addictions (personal opinion!!). Like it feels like men aren’t supposed to have deep, emotional relationships unless it’s with a wife/gf/significant other.

This can turn into a toxic, lonely existence, ready to be numbed with self medication, anger, and hate. This was for me at least. When you don’t have people to talk to, trust, or confide in, you start getting lost in your own thoughts and self destructive behaviors. This doesn’t only apply to single men either. Marriage can be just as lonely a place as well if the communication is bad.

I know for me, a key part of my recovery has to be built around finding good, healthy, male friends, with whom we can share mutual respect, trust, support, and love. For too long I’ve overlooked the importance of having these kind of friendships.

There is something important about having friends of your own gender. Every gender has problems that other genders simply won’t understand. It is important to have people to confide in who will understand you, without passing judgement. For example, I was a liberal arts major in college, so most of my friends from college are women (nothing sexual, strictly platonic). I consider some of them really good friends (one helped me navigate my divorce!). However, there are some topics we don’t talk about together, because we can’t. We won’t be able to relate to each other or fully understand what were talking about.

Thank you for sharing this. It gave me a lot to think about

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@SassyRocks thanks :blush:

Blockquote

I agree. It can be argued that fear of being seen as weak or described as gay is rooted in homophobia and toxic masculinity which I know I have had to work on and challenge. Access to healthy models of masculinity where the person isn’t always macho and able to chop down trees or never face depression is limited.

This article is also another good read if people have a chance. There are several variations on the site on the same topic.

https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/megasahd-the-lack-of-gentle-platonic-touch-in-mens-lives-is-a-killer/

I was surprised when I started travelling to see how other men in other cultures are more confident to show physical affection in their platonic relationships and how it wasn’t perceived as erotic interaction. In Turkey or Brazil, for example, touch seemed to be wholly differently interpreted. My friend in a conversation shared how when he was in India once there was a beach full of men hugging while he thought maybe they might be in intimate relationships he was told this wasn’t the case. The point I’m making isn’t necessarily that this should be done everywhere but rather touches the point that @HumboldtGinger raises. Men certainly in the UK, in my experience, only tend to feel safe in sharing intimacy with intimate partners or the opposite gender. Working in the Domestic Violence Prevention field I have noticed with other professionals that this often results in abuse of women emotionally or physically as there is a pressure on them to meet needs that are impossible for them to meet by themselves.

I guess when I look at my own life in regards to addiction to porn, for example, it started from a feeling of being woefully inadequate as a man because I felt too emotional or unable to meet the secret standard of what it means to be a man. Part of this has been overcome by realising over men aren’t different and have similar experiences to me and talking it through.

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Whole thing seems like a stretch to me.

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What do you mean?

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it started from a feeling of being woefully inadequate as a man because I felt too emotional or unable to meet the secret standard of what it means to be a man

That was my experience too. The “I’m not good enough” feeling. It spins around and around in your head and makes you feel terrible about yourself, ashamed, desperate to be better, feeling broken and lost. Thinking, “a real man / husband / father would be able to do this”. It is the loneliest feeling in the world.

Connecting with other men and communicating with them I am finding helpful. I have a weekly men’s recovery group I attend in person, which I love. But I wish there was a group I could go to every day. I suppose also I could continue working on my friendships with men, but to be honest I have this worry that I don’t want to burden them if they have busy family lives, after work activities, etc. But I would really, really like a place I could go every day to speak with men and give and receive support.

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Would be good to hear some more @Bubonicphoniks . We realise not everyone has the same experience so please do share :+1:t4:

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Yeah, find spaces is a challenge. I found that picking up a hobby is really helpful. So with photography I meet new people all the time and take it from there. The key is to be intentional I guess and push past the fear a step at a time.

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