You say you want advice and accountability, but refuse to be held accountable for refering to a certain group of people as ‘substances’, ‘its’ and, ‘hookers’
@KevinesKay - I said nothing about ‘prostitute’. My objection was to repeated use of ‘hookers’ and claiming the ‘hookers’ are ‘substances’. So I’m unsure what your point is? There are survivors of the sex trade on this forum, so language matters. You say ‘disgusting’, I say traumatised human being.
There’s a dangerous trend among the sex addiction community to call sex workers ‘dirty’, ‘disgusting’ and describe them as less than human. That’s not just dangerous but it also encourages people to continue paying to basically rape another person and then blame that person for being the disgusting one.
The treatment of living beings, including sex workers, is an important question deserving its own independent thread. (Edit to add: I used the term “living beings” because similar questions of justice and presence and recognition come up in relation to all living things. Life is precious and diverse.) Litigating injustices against sex workers is not the topic of this thread. Me saying that does not mean the injustices don’t exist. But it does mean that the litigation of that injustice here in this specific thread does nothing to reduce the injustices (and it does nothing to advance the recovery of people grappling with sex and lust addictions, which is a factor in those very injustices).
The topic of this thread is the personal journey of @EarningRelationships. The mute button for this thread is at the bottom and is available to you at your convenience. Besides, to really get the attention deserved for the topic of sex worker self-identification and language relating to sex work, it should be in a separate topic with a title focused on that topic (and that thread would not be derailing another thread, because the topic of the thread would already be sex worker self-identification and language relating to sex work).
The question of “dangerous trends” in the sex addiction recovery community is also a topic that deserves exploration, but again, it is not relevant to this specific thread and would therefore be in violation of the Talking Sober rules and guidelines.
I wasn’t raising any new topics, I was and am taking issue with the use of dehumanising terms to refer to sex workers on a theard about addiction to sex and other drugs. Not dehumanising makes you less inclined to pay to rape, which is goal here… or am I mistaken?
You didn’t tell Kevin to start a new thread about his favorite author.
If I did tell him, would that make you change your mind about where to litigate this? If it would, I would happily ask him. But if it would, you wouldn’t be asking me - you’d save yourself time by asking him.
You are raising an important and legitimate question. The question you are raising (edit to add: I mean raising that question here in this specific thread) does not contribute to @EarningRelationships’s recovery and raising the question in this specific thread does not help reduce or mitigate sex addicts’ difficult, traumatizing, and sometimes criminal interactions with sex workers. It truly doesn’t. (Which is why another thread would be better, if it has to be on Talking Sober. That wouldn’t derail this thread, which we’re continuing to do with our convo here.) That is a topic that receives deep attention in private sex addiction and sexaholism recovery spaces (of which this thread is not one).
There is a plethora of perspectives online about this question, and there are ample groups and other online spaces where you can engage in the way you are engaging here. This specific thread is not a space where that engagement is helping to reduce or change or solve the problem.
There are also spaces where you can learn about the private conversations that go on about sex workers and sex addiction recovery. If you’d like those please message me and I will give you some links.
I’ll snitch on myself here, @moderators can we please just have someone keep an eye on this thread. There’s a lotta people trying to recover here but keeping it focused in a way that helps sex addiction recovery advance for the sex addict will help everyone (sex workers included).
@Amy30 you raised another question in your reply which if you’d like we can message about. If yes please PM me. Thx
Amy, the dehumanising is intrisinc to sex addiction. It uses other ppl for gratification. Mostly women. Sex workers objectify themselves for money. So it’s awful on both sides. And the use of language here is truly worthy of being brought to attention. However, I think the SA guys’ reticence of using non-dehumansing words is precisely the crux. It’s the SA thinking and that goes so very deep and it’s for them to overcome. We can only shine tiny, annoying pin prick (lol) lights on the way.
I am really hopeful that we all agree when I say that sex work is work and the ‘act’ is far from disgusting. It may be something that you personally do not partake in, but we should definitely not ostracize an entire community especially when said community is vulnerable due to a lack of legal protection.
… oh! you sweet summer child! This post is literally a mirror to something I wrote when I first joined. Let’s just say it didn’t go as I thought it would.
I personally tend to avoid the topic as much as I can on here for many many reasons. (Unless I wanna call out something I find particularly offensive and dehumanising).
Yup, that’s the one. He didn’t even consider that someone might be bothered by the use of the insulting words.
I don’t fully agree with your views on sex work (dehumanising- can be, disgusting- not in my opinion), but I do think we can all agree that people involved in the ‘life’, from the street workers to the high-end to the millionaire OF girls are extremely vulnerable. Their murders and disappearances tend to stay unsolved. I can’t think of a single crime show that doesn’t have at least one dead prostitute episode. Their rapes are never taken seriously. And they also walk around with a scarlet letter for life (especially the online SWs).
It’s important to acknowledge these are people. I remember a member here starting a topic referring to a homeless person as a ‘hobo’. Not one, but several members called them out for using that word.
This member talks about hookers this, hookers that, I politely call it out and two other members jump to his defence. Like… dehumanising language dehumanises people. Sex workers are people. They may have made mistakes. They may be victims of human trafficking. They may battle their own addiction demons. But that doesn’t make them any less human.
And with this, I’m ending my TEDx talk. Going back to the fricatives and plosives.
Just a reminder to those who have some longer term sobriety that when we first come to this forum, the rooms, the GP, where ever in final desperation that we cannot live our lives in that way any longer, just as I did a few months ago, the last thing we are thinking about is whether or not we might offend someone with wording of what spills out of our hearts in that desperate moment.
I read these type of threads and comments and become less and less inclined to participate in case I offend and get pounced on. I wanted to jump to the defense of that poster. Not because I agree or disagree with anything he posted but because he is new to this forum and looking for help and was met with judgement on his first post. I didn’t think that is what this forum and recovery is supposed to be about.
People often don’t learn their behavior or, in this case, dehumanizing language unless someone points it out. I read @Amy30 initial post and it was completely appropriate. The person was engaging in the use of dehumanizing language. His “newness” to the forum is irrelevant.
There is a huge overlap between SW and substance use. I can think of many members here who would read that and feel less than. That is unacceptable. That person can adapt to using better language or he can get dragged. He should be happy Amy spoke up because she is kinder than other people (see me).
That being said I hope you don’t take this as an attack on you. Just me chiming in because I’ve been here a long time and that’s just what I do. The void is my domain
Thank you @Lastry for your post and bringing this to our attention. I would agree with you, in an ideal world we would welcome newcomers with open arms and support them when they need us to.
Fact of the matter is that the winds of intolerance are blowing hard everywhere and that I firmly believe we need to fight that tooth and nail. If that means that a newcomer receives feedback on their words, tone or perspective on minorities, then for me that trumps my desire to be welcoming.
Having said all that, there is a reason why we are all posting in the Derailment thread
Definitely not feeling attacked. It’s been playing on my mind a few weeks as I have seen more than one post directed at newcomers in a similar vein and my “opinion” is just that. An opinion - not a fact. I feel better for having said it. We feel differently and that’s ok!
@Dirk I am just imagining it in a meeting scenario - If I did something wrong and someone called me out publicly in the meeting they would never see me again. If they took me to one side and privately explained the error of my ways I would be more likely to come back. Again, just seeing it differently to you. No issues there
I want to thank you @Amy30 for initially speaking up. As i read that post, I could feel my blood pressure rising. Language is powerful and it hurts people. Also, I had the feeling that the OP might benefit from examining his language. Success in recovery comes from holding oneself responsible and accountable. If we objectify sex workers and call them disgusting, what does that say of their patrons??? They wouldn’t be working without them, this profession has existed probably since humans have used currency. Sex work is work.
Context matters here, I think. If I (or anyone else) walk into any pub and I am voicing my opinion on hookers at the top of my voice, I wouldn’t be surprised if the pub landlord told me in no uncertain terms to shut it or leave. I personally feel that is the appropriate response, but I guess other people’s opinion may vary.
I want to reiterate that the word that I used to describe the act, or behavior that was experienced, was not meant as a judgement on a person’s character. After hearing the author’s account of what she experienced, I cannot find a better word to describe the action experienced.
But since some have misinterpreted me, I needed members to know, especially the ones that have firsthand experience in the world of prostitution, that you are valuable. We are all valuable. And that includes people that are and were prostitutes.
There is a difference between describing an action versus someone’s character.
Now I know that “sex worker” is the PC term that many strongly insist others to use. I used the term myself. But after hearing the firsthand accounts of women in that life, I changed my stance. I don’t like how that term minimizes the trauma that most prostitutes endure while in that life. And it disturbs me that many view “sex work” on a similar professional level as other professions. Kind of feels like it’s made to look like a viable career option that a kid can choose once out of high school. I don’t like the fact that of the 40+ million prostitutes in the world, the majority of them are living lives characterized by immense amounts of trauma. And yet, young kids are led to believe that “sex work” is glamorous. It’s not.
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