lol I have not seen his artwork. I’ll have to check it out.
OMG I did not see the fly! I’m dying haha.
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That’s amazing. 
I miss out on all these things, not being on Twitter.
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This is literally about that political memes thread, and about the tropes that come up generally on the right/ in Trumpism (which isn’t the same as old-school right, because it has so much embedded attachment to conspiracy theories, fox-news-speak and worship of the cult leader). I find it really interesting that so many of the areas of attack are areas where the GOP candidate is extremely weak. “Your guy is old!” [and ours is just 3 years younger, 74]. “Your guy has dementia!” [and ours…]. “Your guy is creepy!” [and 26 women have made credible accusations of rape or sexual assault against our guy, dozens more of inappropriate behavior]. “Your guy owns guns but he wants some slight regulation!” [and our guy boasts about his ability to shoot people on 5th avenue]. “Your guy goes to church every week and is super pious, but we’re gonna say God wants our one, because reasons!” “Your guy will raise taxes!” [as our guy did for everyone except his uber rich friends/kids] “your guy isn’t good on crime!” (And ours surrounds himself with criminals). “Your guy is sleepy!” [and our guy spends most of his day watching TV, eating junk food, and playing more golf than any president on record]. “Your guy is racist!” [and ours was the originator of birtherism]. Or, rather different: “The Democratic Party includes lots of women, and women in power are ridiculous, monstrous or nasty!” I get why people think there’s no difference, even though I also think there’s a huge vast chasm of a difference; the political discourse seems designed to erase it, and it is definitely a problem that in the US, the system is set up to make it very hard for people without wealth or networks to run for office. I would think people might want to move beyond assertions about individuals, towards thinking about the details of possibilities of systemic change, and policy proposals and policy record. For instance, to me, it seems pretty important that historically, in the twentieth/ twenty first century, Democrat presidents have done much better on jobs and the economy, though there are still huge problems, imho, with corporate power and financing. Those things affect lots of people. But we seem to keep fixating on these little feedback loops.
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That is exactly the point… When it gets so personal, and everyone becomes so entrenched and blind to their own biases, the debate just descends into meaningless vitriol. No ones mind is changed, we just lose friends.
A real shame, but easily done when it is stuff we are all passionate about. Even when our logical brains know that the best way to approach it would really be from a place of humility, curiosity and being open minded to the ideas and opinions of others!
(… But funnier 
)
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It is really a shame. I’m starting to think that some people have almost a religious zeal for their political position, which is a little amusing because in both politics and religion there are a lot of people who have never deeply studied the tenants of their sect. They know the most surface things but have brought it close to them, internalized it, and made it them.
Which really is why some people take politics so deathly seriously (in my opinion, of course). When people attack their politics, then the person subconsciously sees it as an attack on them. To let go of that belief, just like in religion, could cause an identity crisis and so even when someone is presented with genuine information that could prove something they believe politically is wrong, they just hold even tighter to the precepts of said political party or ideology.
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I think the internet is incredibly unhelpful too in advancing unhealthy political discourse. The social media algorithms that amplify our echo chambers, the memes that reduce and oversimplify issues (or avoid them all together and just focus on people, cos ideas and ideologies are really complicated).
Also what you’re saying about becoming an identity - sharing memes/ articles/ political opinions becomes the way we tell other people who we are, by what we post. I think the sad thing about that (I’m thinking about Facebook more than here, but it might apply here too) is we make judgements on people and how they will receive us. E.g. they probably won’t be interested in hearing from me in real life or about this other thing because they will just think I’m being (insert negative judgement here) and they post about that all the time. Even though we really don’t have enough information to make that call…
Or we don’t bother saying anything because conversations about politics and ideologies and important issues are complicated and don’t work online, our answers become long and rambling and incoherent (ahem, that might be happening here a bit 
). So the exchange of ideas reduces further, the sides become more entrenched, it is a vicious cycle.
I am really working on trying to understand the position of others rather than persuade people to come round to my way of thinking. Not always easy but I have plenty of opportunities to support the causes I believe in, I don’t need to ruin my friendships over it!
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Totally agree. Reminds me of the saying “those that know it the loudest know it the least”. So true these days, such willful ignorance everywhere.
I yearn for some meaningful political discourse, but it’s just not going to happen online. I’m open to new ideas, to being proved wrong, to sharing my thoughts and ideas. I want to try and find my place in the world, understand and develop my values, but too many people are so far entrenched in their own narrow view these days that it’s basically impossible. It’s sad, such a complete lack of empathy across the board.
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Thank you @siand and @Hailstrom for your comments. I appreciate the time you took to share your thoughts and I think what you both say is very true and potent. I really respect that you both strive to understand what other people believe and want to have that discussion.
I also wish we could have more meaningful political discourse online. That would be really great. Especially because we have the opportunity to have conversations with people all around the world and get a variety of viewpoints that we may not have otherwise thought of because our societies have experienced different historical situations.
There is definitely something to be said about the fact that answers become long and rambling, but I wonder if what seems to be a long answer would not have been seen to be so a few decades ago and that with the advent of the internet and such instantaneous communication, that our ability to focus on something longer than 280 characters has been seriously infringed on. There’s this idea now that we must reply right away, instead of taking the time to consider and think about what has been presented then present something of our own in a longer, but more thoughtfully well rounded way. I think we lose that with the internet at times. Not to mention that people these days are so busy, and their attention is so fragmented, that it becomes almost fashionable to “TLDR” and move on without bothering.
The comments about Facebook and feeling like others would judge us or not be interested really hit home for me. I spent about three months on Facebook before I decided it wasn’t for me. I wasn’t interested in sharing memes, I didn’t like having news articles shoved in front of me that I could easily prove were simply sensationally written or down right wrong, and I don’t want to share pictures of myself and my life with a million strangers. Facebook, Twitter, etc., really only shows tiny snapshots of who people are and all those people who are friended to you will make the judgement about who you are by looking at those snapshots in the same way that they will determine if a news article shared is good or bad by just reading the headline and never actually reading the story. Ten years ago it would seem almost ridiculous to care what anyone online thought of what you posted beyond wanting likes, but now it can literally lose you your family, friends, job, and–if you live in the wrong area of the country–you could be putting yourself in literal danger. And all because people are so attached to something that they have only surface knowledge of.
The anger and the hate is so palpable. It’s a fire being fed by the logs of media lies on both sides of the aisle of political thought. It’s true that it’s not always easy to understand the position of other people, especially when the subjects are so emotionally charged. But I think that there is a very respectable maturity in being able to control those intense emotions, listen, and try to understand.
Well, as you can see, I am very ‘long winded’ I am always interested in having a deeper and more meaningful discussion about these things. If you’re interested, you’re always welcome to DM me, but be warned you will get very long return messages.
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I love the gentleness and respectfulness of this conversation. I share the feeling that voicing hatred and partisanship have got much worse in many ways over the past couple of decades, in the US and post-Brexit UK, maybe also elsewhere.
I’m also really worried by the idea, which I see in that youtube video and in some of this conversation, that the lies, anger and hatred are exactly the same on both sides of the political aisle, in the US. I just can’t find evidence that that’s true. It’s not like I think the left is perfect, at all. But the kind and degree of hate speech, actual violence, lies, norm breaking etc. really aren’t paralleled on both sides.
I read a pretty good book by Jill Lepore last year, “These Truths”: it’s good on the story of how political culture in the US became so partisan that people don’t experience living in the same reality. Truth itself is a partisan issue.
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Sounds like an interesting read! My inner sociology student agrees that truth is definitely subjective… As is the opinion on which side is ‘worse’. Ultimately if you’re looking for a bad guy in the story, aren’t you just setting yourself up to find one?
I saw some pretty rabid anti-right stuff from leftwing Facebook friends around the last election. I found it really upsetting and it totally takes away from all the (to my mind) valid arguments being put forward in the policy arena. I didn’t engage with it online - maybe there are a group of people on the right looking at the stuff that’s posted with the same sense of disappointment? The bile and vitriol is what tends to go viral, but that doesn’t mean it’s representative of the majority of people’s views.
I try and remember that all people have the same basic needs - shelter, security, health, community. If people are rejecting our solutions to the problems in achieving these then that means one of two things, in my opinion. 1. There is something about that person’s experience that we have failed to understand or 2. There is no right answer and we have to accept that someone is going to end up disappointed.
I have found so many lessons in recovery that I try and apply to politics. When I look for the things I have in common with people, rather than the differences, life feels a little easier.
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I stay out of partisan political discussions here, same as I do in church. The last thing I want is someone rejecting my advise or support regarding sobriety, because I vote differently than they do, nor would I want to feel less inclined to render support to someone on the “other” side of an issue that has nothing to do with sobriety.
I can be quite partisan when I want to. Here, I don’t want to.
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Definitely. I do enjoy political debate, and there’s certainly lots to talk about at the moment, but I wouldn’t want anyone to think they couldn’t approach me as a mod, forum member or friend here because of how I vote.
Continuing the earlier discussion - being too attached to our opinions as a form of suffering?
“In sum, if you spend the election season glued to your favorite partisan news outlet, read and share political outrage on social media, and use every opportunity to fulminate about politics, you might become less happy, less well-liked, less accurate, and less informed.”
Some really great, simple and practical actions we can all take to preserve our happiness and our relationships, especially in times of political turmoil!
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My completely unsolicited opinion of the debate. Biden was the clear winner and was better with substantive answers. However, trump wasn’t a complete flaming asshole like last time. In that sense trump is the winner. Look for trump to get a 2-3 point bump in the polls over the next 3-5 days. If he can hold that small bump going in to the election it’s going to be a little closer than people expect.
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Omg YES. We must be the same age
@Blueroom , @siand , @Yoda-Stevie I just wanted to say that I appreciate what you had to say in this conversation. My ability to not notice threads continuing and going by is unprecedented.
I can say that I know people on the ‘right’ and the ‘left’ and honestly they’re all good people. They all want things to be better. They want what is ‘best’ for the world. And, in some ways, there are a lot of similarities in the end goal of what they want, just different ways of getting there. I can also say that there are extremists on the far side of both ideologies and I think we’d all do well to be wary of both.
With all the anger and hate being driven by the news (as can be seen by that article by The Atlantic), I think we can become radicalized and not even know it. And, in this, I mean by looking at another human being and seeing them as ‘less than’ or ‘evil’ or a ‘bad person’, or ‘stupid’, etc., because they believe things we do not. When we stop seeing our fellow humans as human because of beliefs they have due to the information they have been exposed to… what does that make us?
Just a thought.
@Englishd the debate was so much more well done than the first one! It’s interesting to see who thinks which candidate was the winner! Mostly I’m finding that people believe their candidate of choice was the winner. I respect that you are able to say that Trump wasn’t a complete flaming asshole. I have been expecting this election to be closer than the polls have been saying. I think you’re right that this debate may help that along. I suppose we’ll see what happens in a couple weeks! Either way, it’s bound to be an exciting night!
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America on Friday hit its highest daily number of coronavirus cases since the pandemic began, recording at least 82,600 new infections and surpassing the previous record set during the summertime surge of cases across the Sun Belt.
Can anyone recommend some good left-wing political commentators, preferably on youtube? David Pakman is the only one I watch regularly.
I’m thinking in terms of the upcoming election specifically.