Is it time to leave the program?

Life in Recovery
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I’m pretty sure this topic isn’t one of them…

Is that all you’ve seen from those 1000s of meetings of dozens of groups ? Highly unlikely isn’t it, that only one person experiences that, as opposed by the many who have different experiences… :wink:

So tell me which one is true :
A. This is all just made up mumble jumble;
B. You are too pre-occupied with yourself to seeanything but this so-called tough love.

Funny. I had a fantasy of being friends with someone who accepted me the way I am. Whom I would accept regardless their flaws and mistakes. Someone I dared being myself around, who would dare to be their true selves around me.
I found a few of those who happened to be recovering addicts. But that aspect of their persons, is not what defined them as friends.

Again, those are choices. Not facts.

Personally, I think you perceived and received a lot of tough words simply because your own attitude invites for it.

I’ve gotten honest feedback, loving words and yes, a few comments I founf offensive. In return, I gave them my true self. My tears, when I felt hurt. My gratefulness when they helped me understand something. My sincerest apologies when I feared I might have hurt them (usually only ghosts in my own mind, but nevertheless).
I offered friendship and encouragement, and received it in return.
I offered a painful view into my life, my mind, my struggles, fears, insecurities and deepest despair and in return learned to accept and respond to a well meant caring and friendly hug (the first one in over 30 years…)

In short : we get out of it, what we put into it.

I assume it’s a typo and you meant to say " I would come back and I would be different. But I was not." ? :wink:

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I did come back and was different. I am no longer trying to win the approval of people who do not know me. So I was able to walk away.

There have been plenty of people here and elsewhere who have shared that they have had similar experiences to mine. Even my last sponsor saw the behavior I am referring to.

I understand the pushback because the program says not to share the negative unless you can provide a way to fix it. But I disagree. I think that it is important to share ALL our experience. I felt so isolated in the program because no one ever admitted to anything negative. The responses I get online when I share makes me think it does help others to hear that recovery can be hard.

That is why I think it is extraordinary that you were able to share the painful parts of your life. That is what I am advocating for!!! I was always told that these were not appropriate for sharing with people in the program. But in your case, you say that it was helpful!

I suspect that if I had your experience, AA would have helped me. But I just never saw anything like that.

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Yet I cannot help but feeling that is dxactly what this topic is about…

Of course. But not in 1000s of meetings in dozens of groups.

That’s not the program- it’s life. Complaining without solutions is easy, but useless. Accept what you can’t change, change what you can. That’s life.

That’s a choice. Most of my shares are áfter the meeting, not ín a meeting.

Is it ? Or is it simply what most of us try, but often decide nót to do because they allow shame and fears to rule them ?
Again, we get from it what we put in.
Do you even remotely understand how isolated it feels, telling a group of 40 people the one part about yourself you fear most to expose ?
But, also how deep gratitude and connection can be when after that meeting someone smiles at you and hugs you, just because you exposed it anyway ?

In that case you would be 48 and your life would be a complete mess. But the best mess ever.

But again, I find it hard to believe that 1000s of meetings over dizens of groups all had the experience you describe.
At least investigate your biases…

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Can i ask did you try NA some find that shift enough, AA can be very regimented at times. My personel view

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Yes, I have done NA and other fellowships. Also online during the pandemic.

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I think describing someone asking for help as “complaining” is part of the problem. People should be able to ask for help without being shamed or dismissed.

We say that no one can get sober on their own, but when they say they are afraid of relapsing, we tell them they are complaining or that its their own fault.

I think if AA lived up to the literature, we would be there to talk them through the struggles.

I got only got clean because I called friends who would get me through the cravings. I did not offer them solutions–I had none! I just said I was afraid and needed help.

I do know how isolated it feels to expose yourself to a group. I also had such a share. I remember as well that they one or two people who smiled kindly. One touched my arm. But then I was asked not to share problems, only solutions. Maybe you felt it was worth it, but the shame made it hard for me to ever feel comfortable around anyone from that group ever again.

I cannot go back to that and cannot imagine why I thought I should.

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No we don’t. I always replied to them that they got the telephone list of the group, and were invited and welcomed to call anytime when they felt they needed.
On the other hand, if you feel a relapse coming up and you don’t call - well excuse me, but then it wás your own choice wasn’t it ?
But then, as always, I will tell them there is nothing to be ashamed of. Learn from mistakes, get on your feet again and start over.

Exactly - that’s what the telephone list is for.

Neither did I three years ago. So I listened to those who seemed to have found one that worked for them.

I remember that as well. But I also remember the people that reached out afterward to me, by phone, app, mail…

Oh, I definately know that feeling ! Nevertheless I was there yesterday. And shared. Why ? Because shame and fear are only overcome with being prepared and willing to be vulnerable again. Why would I do that if they don’t care ? Because it’s mý recovery. Mý growth.

Again, I find it hard to believe in all those meetings this was all you experienced. If you did, you missed the thousands of people like me reaching out. Why is that ?
It sure as hell isn’t because we were never there…
Again, investigate your own biases…

On a sidenote, I never have been much of an AA person. I preferred NA for reasons often mentioned here. But AA, NA, CA, Minnesota, whatever 12 steps program - they are all alike. Find the one that suits you best and in my case that was NA eventually.
Nevertheless I allready had almost 18 months cleantime before I really started joing meetings regularly. Had been working the steps on my own untill then which, looking back at it, was my own required way to get to where I am today. Having no sponsor, I just shared my entire 4th step over here.
By now I’m closing in on 3 years and about 18 months going to meetings regularly.

Had some shitty meetings and some beautiful meetings (again, I find it unlikely that someone only has a 1000 shitty meetings… then that person is the problem him/her/theirselves).
By now, I consider them my family. They know everything about me. And of course some are not to fond of me, that’s fine. I’m not to keen on them either. Others on the other hand, I would reach out for even if I would have to walk into hell to drag them out. Just like they sometimes do for me.

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A few people on line bring up calling on the telephone. Why is that okay when telling people face-to-face that you are afraid of relapsing is not? I do not get the distinction.

Also, this is not a universal thing. Every sponsor I had till the last were emphatic that when I felt I might relapse that i should NOT call them.

I also do not think my sponsors would have been happy if I went around to people saying I was putting together a phone list. They were very old school and against the program becoming a social club.

At this point with nearly seven years clean and sober, I would be part of the program to help. But like I said, a lot of what I believe in (sharing the negative, asking for help when craving, etc) is not going to go over very well anyway. So my help is probably not wanted.

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You say people reached out to you by phone, apps etc.

If they could contact you by those means , It sounds like you had social relationships with these people as well as “AA/NA relationships.”

That might also make a difference. My friends outside the program had no restraints on how they helped. Inside the program, my sponsors were always by the book–as were people at meetings. So they had to hang up on me when I said I was afraid I would use, but my friends just stayed on the phone and talked.

I am guessing that your friends did the same.

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Read back. I’m not gonna listen to, or respond with, same answers over and over again.

In most groups I know, if not all, every newcomer gets a booklet and most members add their phonenumber in it.
We only keep what we have by giving it away remember ? Additionally, some have group apps.
And yes, as said most shares are after the meeting. And sometimes you get phonenumbers or email adresses if you connect with people.

Like I said, they’ve become my family.
But before ? I hád no friends. Not one. Being an addicted autist doesn’t make you very socially skilled…

Again and for the last time : you may have had a few shitty meetings, but I don’t think it were the 1000s you say in the wide array of groups.
You would have seen different sides of you visited more different groups.

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Is this like a troll thread or something? I feel like everything you are describing about AA and how people act and should conduct themselves in it in regards to helping others is just completely the opposite of most peoples experiences and the principles that are taught in AA. I only ask because you’ve been making the same points for weeks now, I don’t see how this is benefiting anyones sobriety, there are threads on here for people trying to get sober without AA. Which is awesome for people who don’t like the AA route. Maybe that will be helpful for you. please correct me if I am wrong.

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163

I no longer have the will to read this. It is a labyrinthine descent into…I don’t know what. :thinking:

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I do not know about booklets, I did see a list at an online meeting and they said it was to call people I knew but I was new so I figured that did not apply to me.

I have been to dozens of groups and I have been to at least a hundred meetings. Over 22 years, if I went to an average of 45 meetings a year (some more some less) it did indeed hit 1,000 if not more.

It really adds up.

And no not all of them were bad. I would not even say most were bad. I think the program is a bit materialistic. People bragging about money and career as a sign of sobriety. And most people meant well.

I just do not see how you get close to people in the program when you constantly have to censor what you say, avoid turning the meetings into a social hour, and also respect anonymity.

I genuinely do not know how to do that. And every sponsor I had said I should not even try.

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I am coming up to seven years now. It only happened when I left AA.

I felt very isolated in the program. The way people talk about the program here is not how many of us experience it. People online recommending actions at meetings that would get you shut down anywhere I have been.

Right now I am just responding to people. I do think posts like this give hope. They gave me hope and the strength to get support that AA/NA said was wrong.

I had come back, but was upset that people at a meeting were making excuses for not helping struggling addicts. (In my view, that should be the whole point of the program.)

I did leave. But I think it is good to show people you can recover, even if AA does not work for you.

Also, it is the rubber band principle—the whole time I was in 12-step recovery, I could not ask questions, could not discuss recovery in any depth. There is a huge backlog of stuff coming out that I wanted to talk about when I was in the program.

Now that I am out, I can.

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Sorry to pile on but you write in such depth—but comment is so strange.

It sounds like you are blaming people for not calling when they feel relapse coming on. So it is their fault for following the program?

I know from online that some people think that is okay, but for many of us, we were told it would be wrong to call another addict at such a time.

We are not supposed to bring anyone down with us.

This was a big part of me leaving the program before and now.

I think we should be calling people at such times and I think it is very wrong to hang up on people asking for help at such times.

That is what started this whole thread—a meeting where people were coming up with excuses not to help.

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This poster starts this topic once every few months or so. Yes. It’s trolling whether intentional or not.

@one , congrats on 6 years and I hope you can find some peace and happiness.

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172

I’ve been going to a 6:30 AM meeting for over 10 years. I find that the people who attend that put a value on sobriety that is different than I have found at evening meetings, even some nooners. I got sober in noon meetings because I couldn’t make it through the whole day until an evening meeting.

The general opinion is that if you come to the 6:30 AM, you are there for sobriety first and foremost, and you’ve really got to want to be there.

So maybe try a meeting like that, I find they are smaller, more intense, long on experience strength and hope and short on advice.

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The thread was closed because of dogpiling, which is against the rules and it was going around in circles.

Lets remember to respect each others’ experiences, and to think about whether a post is neccessary before posting. Mute is also an option when a thread is frustrating.

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Also everyone please remember that moderators do not read every thread. If you think someone is trolling, if a thread is going nowhere, if tensions are rising etc please do make use of the flags to bring things to our attention!

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