Levels of dishonesty

Life in Recovery
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So I was doing my nightly inventory (review of my day). The question came up, “Were you dishonest?”. Since being clean I have done much better being a honest person. Not just with others but with myself too. But… I realized that I had not been completely honest with a stranger. I was picking up a package at the post office and I needed my photo ID. I knew it had been expired since Dec 2020 but I had been using it many times to pick up my packages for Xmas n holidays n stuff. Anyway, the clerk finally catches that it’s expired and she says she can’t give me my package. I had other cards along with my lease proving my address cuz the address on my photo ID wasn’t accurate. I told her… (and here comes the lie)… “I only realized it was expired last week, when I was organizing my wallet and getting rid of a bunch of stuff I don’t need anymore. I dont smoke or drink or go to clubs that require me to show my ID… so I didn’t know until recently”. Like I said I knew it had been expired for a long time. I told a lie so that I could get my package. It would’ve been sent back cuz I wouldn’t have had the time or money to get a new photo ID. So I lied to get what I wanted.
At the time i didn’t even really notice that I lied. It’s a small lie but it is still being dishonest.
Anyway, I thought about it. Realized that I need to do my part and take care of my responsibilities (in this case, keeping on top of stuff like this). I already have budgeted fir ID for next pay. Dishonesty is sneaky. For me it used to come in the forms of flat out lying, stealing, and even withholding the truth (which isn’t lying bcuz im not actually speaking false information… but it is being dishonest bcuz I’m not being truthful).
But really tho…

  • What do u consider dishonesty?
  • Is there times when being dishonest is okay?
  • Levels of dishonesty? Some acts are worse then others. But is a “white lie” like what I did at the post office, okay or would it potentially create a snowball effect and hinder my recovery?
    :thinking:
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I would lie to protect others BUT I’m not perfect and I am very capable of twisting the truth to suit me.
Then at the end of the day do my inventory, acknowledge my defect and strive to be better tommorow.
We aim for progress not perfection :+1:

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Good question. This is an age long debate. I generally try to be honest in everything that I do. I don’t overtly tell lies, or even try to stretch the truth in day to day life (separate from my addiction, which I’ve been horribly devious in).

One could argue that a white lie that has no impact on individuals outside your sphere of influence is harmless. But, it also could be said that it damages you instead. It’s our nature to try to hide imperfection and try to self-gratify. Facing truths within ourselves is tough and necessary.

I don’t really have an answer for you. But, my instinct here would say that lying to get what you want is wrong.

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In my opinion…that little lie, isnt what would make you go back out again. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said

The little lie was basic human ego, and a symptom of just not taking care of what needed to be taken care of. That is a pretty profound outlook, and is the “fix” to the little lie.

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I look at lying like a drug. I try not to use it. I’m not perfect, but I look at it like a substance. After all it is addicting and can produce a high. It also brings out the worste in me–manipulative and egotistical. I try not to get high on lies. Lying tends to hurts those around me. I strive to live honestly and respectfully and turn the weight/anxiety of living this way over to my higher power. It’s my higher powers universe, not mine.

This is something I continue to work on. Keep it up!

PS: A very young newcomer said this in a meeting last week: “when you live selfishly you’re actually f****** yourself”. To which the room laughed in agreement and approval of this fact of life. Living honestly and being selfless paradoxically results in a better life than one lived selfishly. So it’s good news really. There’s nothing to sacrifice. Tell the truth and help others then life gets better for you.

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Hmmmm…

This was a pretty impactful part of my step work. For me I have noticed that situations like you have mentioned have “allowed” me the freedom for more of those “little lies”.

What would have happened if you had said, " Yes I know that is the case, I have these other pieces of ID to back the expired piece up, I just haven’t had the money to renew my license lately." She might have surprised you and said, " ah yes the pandemic has been hard for lots of people I understand " or she may not have…

I have found that it is a knee jerk reaction to base my assumptions on my past experiences and the lifestyle I used to lead which isn’t the correct thing to do. So innately my brain will go to survival mode and try to get me out of what I am perceiving as a sticky situation.

An example is what happened when I finally got the courage to talk to my doctor about going on ADHD meds. Open and honest without fear of judgement. Having faith that the right thing will happen and not trying to control the situation with my will. It has worked out fine, I did not have to lie and cheat the system to get medication.

The basic human ego thing that Scott was mentioning I used to do a lot. For example I might be talking to a friend and they ask " what are you making for dinner?" And I might reply something like “oh steak, baked potatoes and I pulled some fresh carrots from the garden, yum!” When in truth I had cracked a can of vegetables. Silly shit but for me that stuff is poison and snowballs into much bigger issues if I am not careful.

I think it is great you called yourself out on this.

:ok_hand:

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This is a really, really good question (and thread topic). Thanks! Ok here we go.

Personally I think the core issue here is accountability. What are my responsibilities, what should I be doing and what do I do, and am I fulfilling them? Am I being honest when I’m struggling to meet my accountabilities? (Progress, not perfection, right?) That’s how we grow. Reaching out helps.

I think if I am saying something that is specifically untrue, I am lying. I try (not perfectly, but still) - I try to think carefully about what I need, and then to say things that will help me and the other people involved to get what we need, without being untrue. (I hope that makes sense.) It is also important that what I say not create problems for others, caused by me, and I must not be cheating or stealing, etc.

A good example of this is when I last renewed my passport. I did need the passport for an upcoming trip. I had a valid passport but I couldn’t find it. We had recently moved and so, so much stuff was in boxes. When I got to the passport office the officer said that for people with valid passports, they could only issue new passports if the old one was lost or stolen. I said it was lost. This was not technically, technically true - with more unpacking and searching and organizing my house I probably could have found it (and in fact I did find it later that year!) - but I had the trip coming and at the time I really didn’t remember where I’d put it. So in that sense it was lost. (Edit to add: all the new passports have new numbers anyway so even if I or anyone else had kept the old passport it would have been useless because its number would be invalid.)

So to sum up: dishonesty is when I’m being deceitful. It is covering something up, cheating, stealing (money or recognition), or evading responsibility for my truth. (My truth is my situation and my responsibility for my life. If I show up to work late I am reprimanded. If I make up a reason I’m late, I’m evading my truth. If I say my truth - I struggled to wake up [which is common among people with ADHD; my boss knows I have that] - then it’s up to my boss to make the decision about how to respond, and I’ve done my part by giving the relevant information. I have been written up a couple times. But I have not been fired. It has been 5 years now.)

In terms of the ID at the post office, I think, you might have gone too far in saying “I only knew last week” - personally I think you could have kept it general; “I have been meaning to update it but money has been tight” or “I have been behind with this but if you can hold this for just a sec I can come back with something else”, etc. The worker seemed sympathetic to you - obviously she has the capability to be flexible; she was flexible about your expired ID - so maybe a more general statement would have helped you without having to say something untrue.

Only you can know that. You’ve done a helpful thing by posting about it here - it always helps to speak with trusted folks. If you want, you could return to the post office and just admit it to the worker, and if you like, explain (in a way acceptable for you) why you did it. You may find she’ll say, “it’s fine, just don’t do it again”. You may also have a consequence. (I can’t imagine it would be that bad.) Either way at least then you’ll feel like youve been fully accountable.

Accountability. It’s a key thing in life (for all humans, not just people in recovery).

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A thought-provoking thread.

I think the inventory-ing is key. Noticing and unpacking will make u think about how u want to be and how to get there. This work will ensure small lies don’t snowball into something that may sabotage recovery.

It is excellent timing as I have been thinking similar. I hope it is ok to share my recent thoughts about myself. I usually automatically tick ‘no’ to dishonest. I didn’t steal or have a affair or something big. But honestly I lie to my husband all. the. time about money. It is small things, saying I used a coupon when I didn’t, saying I bought something in the cheap shop when I actually went to the local, slightly more expensive one. The money is a few yen, so less than a dollar, but telling the truth would result in sighing, eye-rolling and consequent nagging and I want to avoid that. It is not ‘rigorous honesty’ tho.

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Omg!! Thank u for sharing that… bcuz I do the same damn thing and yes it IS bcuz I dont want to have to deal with his reaction. And until u said something just now, I didn’t recall all those times I would lie. And often it is about spending money or where I purchase something. I’d buy Amazon stuff and purposely have it delivered during a time he wouldn’t be home, accept the package, and throw the box in the recycling where he wouldn’t see it. Or I’d lie about grocery shopping totals. Or I’d lie about stuff being on sale! Omg I’m a little liar :fearful: I’m gonna have to change this cuz ur right it isn’t rigorous honesty. Thank u for sharing ur experiences too :heartpulse:

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I am well schooled in the art of manipulation and it sucks. As a child I lied all the time to make myself more interesting. One of my parents spent a great deal of their time and energy running me down and so lying to others was my way of coping. I simply wasn’t enough as I was. My other parent had a lot of guilt and I used it against them, which is where the manipulation skills came to be. As a teen my parents never believed me when I told the truth so I lied bc it was easier. When I was 13 my whole social world fell apart because I was finally called out in a huge way and I started to see what others saw. When I was 21 it happened again but this time I was telling the truth, but it didn’t matter, because of my past. However the second time it cost me absolutely everything that mattered and changed the trajectory of my entire life. I began to overcompensate and hyperfixate with honesty and became infallible with it. Never mean or “sorry, just being honest”, just never wavered from the truth no matter what so no one could ever accuse me of lying about anything. Now I can see there is sometimes value in a “white lie” if it spares someone’s feelings or something along those lines. I do have to actively choose to not manipulate a situation sometimes and it always amazes me that it’s a choice not an instinct, which is what it should be. I guess somethings just stay with us in the end.

I consider dishonesty a lie that is a means to an end. It’s never ok to be dishonest. Its not black and white but a lie that spares feelings is ok. But there’s so many layers to it, its so hard to say. Like…if I’m lying to spare feelings, ok…but if I’m lying to spare feelings so I can avoid a consequence, not ok.

I have a lot of baggage with this. Sigh…

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For me sometimes i avoid the truth, like if someone asks me if im alright i say im fine when i might be feeling down and low. Takes a little longer for me to come to the conclussion that i might need to share what im really feeling . Like a buddy of mine Mike will say whats really going on, why do we think we need to cover things up or lie about how we’re really feeling, might be hard to ask for help admit that we let things go and forget or dont care to deal with them for months or years. Once we start dealing with our problems when they first start the less we will worry about them becoming bigger issues. I have to do things with good intention or a white lie will become another big problem i can put off addressing for days or months to come. Thats probably why i was an addict/alcoholic for so many years i believed the lie i was telling myself, that a drink or drug was making me feel better when actually it was just a band aid for bigger wounds that had never really fully healed. I guess the saying goes the truth will set you free? Or set you in prison.:thinking::slightly_smiling_face:

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cant-handle-the-truth

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