Welcome to Talking Sober I am super glad you are here!!! Read as much as you can, there is a ton of support for everyone.
4 Likes
I’ve just read through this thread and the other atheist thread that was closed. I like that there is a thread for atheist and agnostic forum members just as there is for those who are religious.
As Master of Long Comments, I am putting my response under an expandable arrow to save space ;)
I’m not part of a religion or a 12 step program. I am an astrologer and for me, referring to my natal chart, transits, progressions, etc., has been useful in my sobriety journey. I refer to astrotheology when it comes to matters of “religion”. If you understand astrotheology and have studied other occulted topics and works, it is easy to understand how these religions were fashioned after astrotheology in an exoteric manner. Some esoteric truths and pieces of wisdom make their way into religion, but the analogy is lost in the translation.
I have extensive knowledge of a lot of religions from the Abrahamic organizations/traditions ( e.g. Jewish, Christian, Islam), to Satanism (I still need to get through Anton Lavey’s work), to various “Occult” groups, to the new rising religion of “New Age” groups. I try to keep the wisdom that helps me in my life, and set the rest aside. In general, as I see it, organized religion is simply a way of controlling the population through emotional manipulation.
When someone asks me if I believe in “God”, I generally ask them to define what they mean by “God” and then I’ll tell them if I believe in that or not. I have a lot of things I “believe” in. Some are things that I feel I have a lot of evidence that it could be true, some simply sound good to me and I think it could be so. I’m very research/evidence focused. Show me evidence that the thing is true and I will consider and change my view where necessary.
A standard answer of “proof of God” is to look at the sun rising or the grass growing or a new born baby. This is not valid proof. This is something meant to provoke a feeling, and feelings are not proof. Just because something is wonderful or because one thing exists, that doesn’t necessarily prove a different thing. This is how I see this argument anyway.
“Higher power” also seems to have a variety of definitions to various people and that’s really no good when it comes to saying something does or does not exist. Definitions are important. Something that is True (with a capital T) needs be specifically defined and does not deviate because it is True.
My personal views on this subject are too complicated to adiquately express in a comment box. For simplicity, I can say that I feel like there is more than just this. I have great reason to think that there is a force at work that is constantly in motion to create and destroy, build and tear down, etc. I have strong reason to think that there are Laws of the universe that govern how things are created and destroyed–big and small–through things like Cause and Effect, for example.
But these things are like the Law of Gravity. This force simply exists. It’s not there watching you lovingly, or waiting to smite if you show too much leg. It is an impersonal force. If your thoughts, emotions, and actions are all in alignment, you can create or make something happen, but if these things inside of you are not fully understood (basically we’re talking about understanding the self here), and they are not in true alignment, then you do not have that force at your command. This force doesn’t care if you are aligned for the greatest good, or the darkest evil.
This matters when it comes to sobriety because every decision we make will have a consiquence, for good or ill (cause and effect). When we make choices to get clean, the natural result is that the chaos formed through the drug/alcohol use starts to go away and we’re able to “streighten out our shit”, so to speak.
Also when we go within, and we really understand what our thoughts are, and don’t let negative subconscious thoughts pass by unnoticed, then we guard our emotions from being influenced by them. What takes hold in the emotional sphere, from the thoughts, ultimately becomes our actions. When we understand this, then we know to watch our thoughts and nip any thoughts of using or drinking in the bud before they can manifest. This my friends, is the true Law of Attraction. This is how you become “god” (with a little ‘g’) in your life.
I can’t prove there is or isn’t a “God”. Maybe we die and go to heaven, maybe this is all there is because there is no “God”. Or, in a sick twist of fate, maybe there is a “God”, but for you there is nothing after this life. 
I personally don’t believe there is a “God” in many definitions others hold for themselves, but I’m not quite sure that either the title of “atheist” or “agnostic” fits me. 
I don’t fit neatly in very many boxes, and I’m okay with that.
These are just some of my thoughts and understandings, along with how they are useful to me in my sobriety journey. Maybe someone else will find them interesting/useful as well. As it pertains to sobriety, I generally don’t care how others achieve their goals. I just care that they achieve them and that I’m allowed space to walk a different path without condemnation.
13 Likes
And you most definitely have that right! Unfortunately there are people who still have a hard time respecting that space for atheist / agnostic people and it’s disheartening. I hope this thread gets the respect it deserves and that other like minded people get their safe space as well 
5 Likes
Thanks for that look into your thinking and views Chiron. Lots of good stuff there. Personally I am more someone that ‘believes’ in science. I see it as the best way for humans to pursue truth, while being aware of its flaws. Which is only logical as humans have such big flaws themselves and I seriously doubt we are smart enough to really grasp what is going on in the universe. Or keep ourselves around long enough to do so.
Astrology is not science for me. Then again, if, for example, the moon has such an influence on the tides on earth, why shouldn’t celestial bodies and their position have an influence on how my body and mind was formed, and how I function now. There could be a scientific explanation there somewhere…
Qi, a tv panel show centred around weird scientific facts, was my favourite tv show for years, but in recent years I lost track of it. It used to be presented by Stephen Fry, one of my favourite humans, bipolar, former cocaine and alcohol addict, great wit, fearless atheist, gay. In 2013 they did an episode refuting a lot of the science presented as truth in ten years of earlier episodes. 60% of scientific facts turn out to be not true ten years later.
I love that. We’re on a road towards a better understanding. And nobody owns the truth. Curious people in the pursuit of knowledge aren’t afraid to be wrong. For me the analogy to my road of discovery (which I find a better term then recovery) is clear. I’m on a road of discovery, trying to discover myself and my place in the world. At bloody 56 years old yes. Who cares. One day at a time.
5 Likes
I love your long winded posts very informative thorough and well thought out,
I figured you were into astrology as your username implies in Greek astrology representing our core wounds and how to over come them plus Chiron was a Greek philosopher, so it fits quite well.
Like you I don’t feel like I check any boxes I’ve gained knowledge in many religions throughout my years out of curiosity, but I have a hard time with what I call blind faith,
I’m a very scientific believer. I like things that can be explained with science, when I am asked I just say I’m not religious in any way, or If I want to be a prick I say I’m religious during earthquakes and on airplanes. But in my experience if I can’t see it or experience it I cannot prove it is there,
5 Likes
That was such a thoughtful and enlightening view of your perspective, thank you so much for taking the time to share it.
This resonates deeply and is similar to where I am at regarding my ‘belief’ system.
I also believe in the Law of Attraction and have seen it at work often in my life experience.
Energy … we are stardust. This is also part of my belief system at the moment.
@mno, that sounds like a fascinating show! I was momentarily confused between Stephen Fry and James Frey (who famously authored, A Million Little Pieces)…thanks to Google I was able to clear that up!!
7 Likes
It’s explained in the first post of the thread Hazy. Plz scroll to the beginning.
edit: it was not just your post that was moved, all posts in this thread were moved from the previous one.
3 Likes
Well written and described 
3 Likes
It’s all good. Thank you for understanding that there are many places for talk of gods in basically every other thread here except one called “sober without god”
5 Likes
After reading this whole conversation I shared about it at my AA meeting, thanks guys 
1 Like
And how sobriety is 100% doable in different ways?
1 Like
Yep and about how the focus on ‘god’ and spirituality in AA can put a lot off
I see myself as Agnostic personally
I’ll keep reading anyhow, respect all ways people recover
8 Likes
Well thank you and I respect anyone who is striving for their sobriety, whatever way works for them 
4 Likes
That’s awesome,
When I was first talking about getting sober, my Ex suggested AA and that was my first reason for refusing, I’m not gonna sit here and talk about something I don’t believe in.
When I first got out of rehab I was forced to go as a requirement, and have a “sponsor” and that set me even farther away, having someone to be accountable to is fine, but having have someone who is supposed to tell me how to do everything right down to how to pee, no fuck that. Don’t make any life changing decisions for 6 months, ok I’m newly sober, living in a new state and far away from what little family I have that wasn’t life changing?
My last AA meeting was around right before I got a year sober, and the end they were trying to do tjr prayer and the chairman asked “Who woke us up this morning?” I replied Steve Jobs, it didn’t go over well.
When I was in rehab it was a big push for AA and there was myself and another girl there named Lauren who were both non Christian, and where like ok why AA why can’t we have other options besides AA? And since then the rehab I attended has offered alternatives for people who aren’t AA people.
In the end, does it matter what belief you choose? Hell no. What matters is you know what works for you, if my lack there of faith, tends to be a problem that’s ok, we don’t have to agree, but don’t push your shit on me, I think of it as, hey we don’t subscribe to the same thing that’s ok, it doesn’t make me less of a person, but don’t try and tell me how your way is the only way, that’s when I tune out
4 Likes
Felt this one!!
Have a good day. Love you all.
12 Likes
This is gold!
3 Likes