Sober without god. An atheist / agnostic / humanist thread. Please be respectful!

[Matt]

@Mno

I have recently started reading the Dharma Recovery book as well, but as soon as I’m confronted with four noble truths and an eight folded path I get very uncomfortable.

Just an observation, but your shares about humanism, and some of your shares on TS about your growth experiences and inner journey over the last few years, make me think the four noble truths are fairly aligned with your everyday praxis as a humanist and a learner and feeler.

The key concept around which the four noble truths are composed is usually translated as “suffering” in English, but there are a mix of opinions about how to present that concept in English, and the word “suffering”, as it is used in everyday English today, is a rough translation at best. There really isn’t a single English word or phrase that captures the nuances of meaning of the original term, which in Sanskrit is duḥkha (sometimes spelled “dukkha”): it’s about the feeling of something being unsatisfactory, impermanent, or not quite the “fit” or “stance” that would resolve everything. It’s about how life dances madly around, and the dance itself, while beautiful and important, is merely occurring around a deeper dance, which itself is around a deeper dance, and then a deeper dance… and it’s turtles all the way down.

The suffering is in holding onto one’s own dance - attaching to the dance; the minutiae and the matter of life - rather than surrendering to the rhythm, without holding on to anything. (This doesn’t mean complacency or surrendering principles, but instead, adopting a “flow” and going with the currents of life: accepting that life ebbs and flows, like the seasons and the tides, and the question to explore is what is possible in the moment where we are now, and to remain open and receptive to the constructive in what surrounds us, rather than dwelling on or attaching to what might have been or what might come to be.)

So how all this relates to humanism (as I see it) is in how pragmatic and grounded the four noble truths are. They’re rooted very much in the messy realities of living in this world (just like humanism). To put it in terms of some of the Ten Commitments:

• critical thinking: to think critically - to inquire meaningfully - means to accept the dynamism and inherent instability of life (i.e., to accept duḥkha), because it is that very instability that makes questioning important
• ethical development: there is a wrong time and place for any potential development (social or physical), and forcing something at the wrong time is a form of attachment (which is a failure to accept duḥkha)
• peace & social justice: violence and injustice arise in significant part from possessiveness, which is a form of failure to accept duḥkha

You can see the pattern, right? The concept of “suffering” (duḥkha) is threaded throughout these core practices in humanism. I might even go as far as to say that without understanding and engaging with that concept in some way (whatever word you use for it), you can’t really inhabit the dynamic, inclusive organism that is humanism, at least not as an active participant.

Does this mean to label oneself a “Buddhist”? No. I personally don’t think labels matter that much, and if labels are the only issue, then it’s worth asking why the label is the only issue. What exists in the four noble truths is the same as what exists in the theory of relativity: a theory that explains observed phenomena. (Not a dogma. A theory.) And seeking to use available data to think critically and constructively, with an eye to understanding - isn’t that the most human(ist) thing of all?

[AyBee]

[AyBee]

[Mno]

[Mno]

June 21st

[MrsOdh]

A bit late on the thread hear, but I read your buddhism post.
And I’m pretty much the same as you. But you know whenever it comes to rules, guidelines, or to follow a special path, putting your life in charge of someone or something else that says things have to be miserable sometimes, and for them not to be you need to do this or that, I’m out.

Each on their own of course. But I’m not buying that stuff no matter the religion. In my opinion we’re not here to suffer, we’re not here to follow rules that makes life harder. We’re here to connect, in all ways we can. And we’re here to help each other do that.

Some trust religion to do that, others don’t. And the ones who doesn’t choose religion aren’t “bad” or “doomed” in any way.
But if you feel the need to put your faith into something outside yourself it’s totally okey to cherry pick.
I do that with everything, language, culture, magic practice (witchcraft) spiritually, cooking.

The golden rule is still the same for everything,treat others like you want to be treated.
And I think Whatever you choose to believe besides that is irrelevant.

[Alisa]

Editing my post to add this.
“And I’m pretty much the same as you know. whenever it comes to rules, guidelines, or to follow a special path, from @MrsOdh ” in the above post.
I agree.
And although this meme has a list of ten commitments … it’s just someone’s idea … I take it as of nice things, not let’s set this in stone.

[Mno]

[OldDogNewTricks]

Brava!!! Well said. I am an atheist and I am very proud of my self created core values.

[Scorpn]

Happy to say I’ve finally caught back up on this thread!
Still atheist.
Still annoyed when my ex’s sister sends me random Bible verses and tells me she’s praying for me…
Still trying to see the best in people and being the best I can be to people.
And most importantly, still sober.

[Mno]

[MrsOdh]

Oh dear, I have those friends as well.
I try to think that they are not doing it for me, they are doing it for themselves.
My point of view is that:

If someone feels better, like a better Christian or a better human or whatever it might be, by praying for me. Then they are welcome to do that, If they need that to feel good, so be it. It won’t affect me anyway because it’s not their thing to pray for. Another humans belief or non belief isn’t the believers responsibility.

[Mno]

[Thirdmonkey]

I have never read something more true in my life.

[SassyRocks]

I wanted to give this thread a bump for those who need it…you are not alone.

[Tragicfarinelli]

Thanks sassy

[Mno]

[Mno]

I’m not yet convinced Dharma Recovery (which is, simply said, a Buddhist recovery group) is for me. But I do like it after attending four meetings over the last two months or so. Or better said, I like the ideas brought forward in these meetings. I love how in the message that’s read at the beginning of a meeting, it is said that here are more roads that lead to recovery, that this is just one possible one, that it won’t be a fit for everyone and that it is perfectly fine to try and utelise more than one road as an individual.

If it’s one thing I’m allergic to it’s dogmatism, the idea that there is only one road and one belief and all the others are inferior or invalid. The main problem I have with twelve step programs is that it absolutely has to involve belief in a higher power. I don’t have that belief.

All religions, and as a matter of fact all non-religious belief systems as well, can be and will be misused. Once hierarchical power structures become involved the beliefs will be corrupted. Once politics become involved the beliefs are adapted and corrupted to serve political goals. Everywhere we see these beliefs used and abused, be it christian, muslim, hindu, buddhist, as well as communist (and atheist), liberalist, etcetera.

So far humanism is the only system I’ve seen that has been immune to this way of corruption. But who knows? All the big religions are fundamentally based on ideas of love, of community, of doing good, of taking care of each other. And see where they have taken us. All I can do is stay critical and to keep looking for connection and love and healing for us all.

[acromouse]

I’m totally with you on the dogma and hierarchy part. I’ve been from early childhood and still am a person who - to a fault - has to question everything and is absolutely allergic to hierarchies. So even the idea of a higher power - something that stands above something else i.e. in a hierarchy - gives me so much cognitive dissonance I just cannot stomach it.
I am coming from a culture with a very deep trust and roots in the christian god, and with many family members whom I regard wonderful people and still regard as role models, who found strength and solace in the most difficult life circumstances (think WW2) in this faith. There were enough times in my life that I wanted that kind of faith for myself.
In a way I have found that faith, but only in the principles I value: that there are no hierarchies and that there is no dogma.
I find the Recovery Dharma meetings, their principles and practices helpful for my journey of recovery - or as you would say of discovery. And that’s how I do life: look for interesting stuff, inspect it, take what helps, discard the rest. Everything changes. Love is good.

[AyBee]