True. The disease itself is not a choice. But don’t you agree the recovery is part choice? Your sobriety, Eric, is because of you and actions you decided to take. You’ve done phenomenally well. I get folks have “higher power” influences but I feel at least, there’s some action we can take to get sober. To recover. Different than a terminal illness with no control.
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Most definitely.
My wife keeps telling me she’s not ready.
She doesn’t want to let go.
She wants to moderate.
I was 
ready!
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There you have it. That was the same for me until I wanted to be free of it. And then I still wanted to drink. I just wanted to be free more. I’d bet a lot it was the same for everyone. We all wanted to continue drinking as long as we could. Until we wanted to be rid of it just ever so slightly more.
I’m going through the same rn with smoking. I still want to smoke (cos it’s the best, lol, kidding). But I also want to not smoke anymore just that tiny bit more.
I’m thankful for the discussion of the disease model @Salty. I think it explains well the physical dependence that substance addictions bring. The mental dependence though, I think the disease model can lead us to see that too one-dimensional. We do, of course, control whether or not we enter recovery. Who else does? It doesn’t just happen. I would say we do not consciously control whether we have had enough. Whether we want to be rid of it enough. But we can bring ourselves there and argue ourselves there, to be ready, we can influence it.
Sometimes I think the disease model can be abused to take responsibility away from ourselves and not look at the root causes of why we chose to escape life in the way we do. Look at process addictions and it becomes very clear: no one would say that the chronic overeater has the disease of overeating or the sex addict has the disease of secretly going to prostitutes. I’m being flippant but it’s to make a point. They are behavioural compulsions that short circuit the pleasure system to let us substitute one set of thoughts and emotions for another, that we want to escape from. And to heal we need to go there, where it hurts, and investigate and sort through all that stuff.
I wonder if the disease model also takes away from the pain of the partner who is sober. Reminding ourselves that our loved one has a disease makes it easier to bear, it helped me bear the pain of my partner’s acting out and betrayal to know the compulsion and what it does to one, how it changes and twists one. It did help. But it was necessary for me aswell to understand the he made the choice, on one level, to lie to me as long as he did. To not come clean after the first few times even though he knew he was developing a massive problem there. I had to accept the utter strangeness of his actions and that I had no control over them. And that he did not take the control that he had for as long as he didn’t. Cos he wanted to act out still more than he wanted to be free of it. And he wanted to continue to lie to me more than he wanted to go through the pain of coming clean and starting to work. I think that was because he didn’t see a way to stop acting out and to stop lying and he didn’t have any idea about the work on oneself one can do and how fucking good things can be if you do that work. He didn’t have all the info. But with that limited info he had, he made his choices.
The questions of disease and responsibility and condemnation and forgiving and empathising are big and complex ones. And for all of us here, for most of us in more than one way, lived ones. I appreciate everyone’s shares here on the matter. There’s a lot of experience on this page. 
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I love everything you’ve said here. Well put.
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It’s been awhile, again, since I’ve com here to post. I learn a new technique today and thought I’d share it here. It gets kind of personal. But that’s OK. I can only keep the focus work on myself to get better.
Anger and the 5 Why’s
I just heard about the 5 Why’s. I thought I would apply it to one of my issues with my loved one.
When we are watching our shows on TV and her head goes back and up. Asleep or passing out? It bothers me.
Why does that bother me. (Makes me angry?)
It hurts my feelings.
Why does it hurt my feelings?
I feel neglected.
Why do I feel neglected?
Because it’s our show. It’s one of those things we do, and now I’m watching it alone.
Why does that bother me?
Because I feel I’m always alone and I have no one to share these evenings with.
But Why does it really bother me?
The neglected part.
My older sister use to get a lot of beatings when she reached early teenage years. I was only about 6 or 7 and I heard those beatings in her bedroom next door. She screamed because dad was hurting, (spanking,) her. I hate that word spanking!
My disabled dad was never there for me. But he was a good dad. He couldn’t help it. But he was never there for me to throw a baseball or shoot baskets or go to any of my games. I did not want spankings. I was going to be good. I was going to make sure I pleased mom and dad so they would love me and not hurt me.
My little sister 9 years younger, My Dad Loved. He would mediate with her and put her in level and give back rubs and be real nice to her in that bedroom next door that my older sister use to live in and get spankings!
HEY! WHAT ABOUT ME!!!
Now where do I go!
People Pleasing. Of course.
Anger? If I get angry something bad might happen to me.
I will just keep quiet. And please every one so everyone will like me and nothing bad will happen to me. I won’t confront anyone because that might make them angry. I will go along with everyone because it’s easier. I will like the same people as everyone i’m with to make sure they will still like me. And it will be easier.
And I’ll take care of myself and everyone else so I will feel good and loved.
What will I do the next time, AND THERE WILL BE A NEXT TIME, her head goes back and up and passes out? I can be angry about it. Realize, it isn’t personal, and I can continue to watch the show or shut it off. There’s really only 2 options. Option 3 is, I could hassle her and try to make her stay awake to watch it. It’s totally up to me. If I shut it off I don’t get to see the end. If I keep it on she won’t remember what happened. So What? I don’t really want to watch it agin. What’s to stop her from passing out next time we try and watch it?
How big of a deal is it? Well, it’s a big deal to me. Maybe it doesn’t have to be such a big deal after all.
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I can really relate to this. The ‘strange’ part is that being like this, using this as a coping strategy didn’t make it easier in the end for me. It violated my boundaries (I hadn’t set up then).
Today, it feels like I did some progress and there is still this little voice of guilt when I try to stand up for what I really want. As if I am not allowed to. I try to figure out the terrain between healthy boundaries and not being social at all.
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Lots you have said here. I like how you deciphered and worked through your feelings with the 5 Why’s.
Amazing learned responses you have from the tragedy of parts of your youth. ( Your poor sister).
You are learning about yourself more each day. I’m glad you’re good with your new routine of not so much routine.
You’re a wonderful person and I hope your home life will become happier for you so you won’t feel so alone. I’m glad you have the fur balls there and also your meetings.
I don’t know if the show is live or recorded. If it’s recorded maybe y’all could watch it earlier before the fairly predictable pass out/ early fall asleep time. If it’s live, record and watch the next day earlier. Date time for the show earlier. 10 am after morning chores.
Big hugs Eric. Congrats on your growth and taking care of yourself, too. 
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Great work, its really hard work and your doing it. Super stuff.
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I came to the place I needed this morning and I know this is true because the tears finally came. What I am experiencing is a relapse, not of my own sobriety, but a relapse all the same and just as fucking painful and all encompassing. I feel like my joy and satisfaction has been robbed and this is because of my relying on him for it. How did I not see this coming.
I am powerless over his addiction just as I am mine. The why I don’t understand, how could he get a taste of recovery and not fall in love…how could he not want to choose life over this bullshit he’s now going through. Again.
I’ve got a lot of work to do, but this helps.
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Sorry to hear that you are going through painful times. I may borrow a saying from @Dazercat that helped me a lot: When you focus on your partner’s addiction you do not focus on your own sobriety. Sending you hugs
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You know for the longest time, ever since I started my recovery 1000 + days ago I been waking up thinking about my gratitude list and what I’m going to post. Even in the middle of the night going to the bathroom, 
I would wake up thinking about gratitude. And go back to sleep. That’s how I’ve retrained my brain with my daily gratitude work. BUT NOW 
When I wake up, I think about my loved one and her drinking. I noticed this the past week. 
I mean……I been going to Al-Anon now for over 4 months. I got a great podcast. Remember I hate podcast The Recovery Show. I’m still working on myself. And I’m not angry about “having,” to work on myself. We are communicating very well these days. We are getting along. But, just lately, the first thing I think about, when I wake up, is about her drinking. And I’m not even angry. Well, maybe I am, and don’t know how to be angry, and then let it go. Been working on that.
Anyway…… I heard Spenser on the recovery show refer to something in the book “How Al-Anon Works.” It made a lot of sense Now I got all the fucking tools. I’m going to meetings, listening to podcasts I don’t need another fucking self help book. But being Eric and keeping my open mind and wanting to get better I checked it out. The free sample on line.
The Many Faces of Al‑Anon
I can remember feeling ambitious, waking up excited about my day, having loads of energy. I don’t know when all that slipped away. Now it’s all I can do to pull myself out of bed. I barely keep myself or my children washed and fed, and then only out of a sense of guilt or embarrassment. I didn’t see it coming. I just slowly lost touch with the part of me that was able to care, and I don’t have a clue how to find it again…
Everyone thought we were the perfect family.
We always looked so good and behaved so beautifully in public. My friends used to say they wished that they could have my life instead of their own. I had so much to be grateful for. But something about my life just wasn’t right. I couldn’t put my finger on it. I just knew I wasn’t happy…
Whelp Sounds jus like me.
So I’m about to download load the E version of the book and of course I think of my qualifier. She’s going to see it. Things are going well between us. Oh No 
What do I do? I downloaded it anyway. I’m am not responsible for her feelings.
And furthermore, it’s not about her, it’s about ME! And it’s about the Family disease of alcoholism. I’ve been forgetting, but I’m learning, I was raised (my mother) by a Codependent Child Of A (raging) Alcoholic. I believe there is a lot more for me to find out about all this codependency shit and why I am what I am.
So I reckon I’m going back to basics. Starting at the beginning.
Anyway. That’s my story today.
I’m not giving up on my wife.
I’m not giving up on my family.
And more importantly I’m not giving up on myself.
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Me neither but strangely enough I just ordered these this morning.
One of my sponsees wants to do a set of CoDA steps so I thought I should familiarize myself with them, oh and Im fucking addicted to books.
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This is my main al-anon resource- my partner and I will take our turn leading a couples Al-anon/AA group we belong to and I like to pick readings from here on detachment with love and Let It Begin With Me 
That group really amped my commitment to sanity in all of my relationship!
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I’ve heard,
” I got sober in AA. I got sane in Al-Anon.”
Good for you guys leading a couples group. I cannot even imagine that. That’s great 
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I set a boundary with my wife 3 or 4 months ago when my life became unmanageable because of the way I’m dealing with her drinking. Things were pretty shitty when I made that boundary and as the months have gone by I’ve started to doubt myself or worry about…. Did I even make that boundary? Of course I did. And I don’t want to bring it up again. I made the boundary or pretty sure I made it back then when I said I cannot be out with you in restaurants when you’re drinking hard liquor. So I need to be able get up and go wait in the car or whatever if she orders a cocktail.
It’s definitely not to control her drinking. Because it’s impossible for me to do that. The boundary is to remove me from an uncomfortable situation I don’t want to be in.
Anyway……She wanted to go back to that nice restaurant where we had the “incident,” 3 or 4 months ago. I got to say ok and, “do you remember my boundary?” She said she did. She said she never will do that again. I was pretty relieved and we talked and I explained my boundary and she reassured me it won’t happen. She’s still mortified about the whole thing. And hopes enough time has gone by no one there will remember her.
So that was nice. We had a nice dinner. She had wine I had sparkling and……. Whatever.
So what I learned is.
I set a boundary awhile back.
I tried not to worry about the future.
I didn’t bring it up again and nag her.
She mentioned it.
We talked about it.
And I feel pretty good about.
And I got to reenforce my boundary now I know for sure she knows about this boundary I’ve set.
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I have a sister that is in end stage alcoholism I’m afraid. She had a very good job, great life, but addiction has robbed her of everything and everyone. She is now homeless. I was hoping that would be “rock bottom” but I’m afraid it isn’t. A fellow homeless person told me all she had is a black garbage bag with some clothes now. She’s even been permanently banned from the shelter for drinking. I’m just so depressed thinking about her situation and I feel hopeless. I just never thought my big sister would end up like this.
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That is so heartbreaking, I’m so sorry to read this about your big sister. and I’m sure you feel very helpless and depressed. Its so hard to find any hope in these situations, It’s so hard on all the family. And your poor sister. I’ll put you and your sister in my prayers.
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Thats awesome Eric! Im very happy for you that you were able to revisit the restaurant without incident, and with the boundary being respected. Also that you were able to bring it up but without nagging or trying to control the situation. You had a boundary and thats good, thats healthy, thats ok.
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This feels like a positive step forward for you both.
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Nice! You stuck to your boundary, took it a step further and discussed it. That’s huge growth right there. Win win!!!
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