Behind the Curve documentary is a crazy ride to follow the “science”.
Fitting end to it.
Brilliant
6 Likes
When you dig into a lot of these conspiracy theories you find what you might call a type of “carnival fortune teller”. People are making a lot of money selling books and courses and products that reveal the “truth”.
It’s simple hucksterism (a “huckster” is someone who sells things through sensational lies):
- whip people up into a frenzy; convince them there’s a problem; keep your words sensational but also vague (vague enough to fit into a lot of different situations; vague enough to not be measurable)
- offer a unique solution to the problem, available only from you (and since your words are vague, there’s no way to verify the performance of your solution; buyers have to believe you and your solution are the only answer - and the sensational words you’re using are what makes it work: “available here only! The truth the _____ doesn’t want you to hear!”)
Dig into any conspiracy theory and you’ll find people making a lot of money from it. It’s not about truth, it’s about making money by telling stories people want to hear.
People want to believe they’re special. So why not tell them they’re special? (Edit to add: people want to - need to - believe there’s a reason for their feelings.) Especially if they’ll pay for my books or courses or conferences so they can learn the truth. (Obviously anyone interested in honesty wouldn’t do this, but if your goal is to make money by any means, without limits of ethics or integrity, then this is fair game.)
I’m not sharing this to be negative, just to open it up a bit. The conspiracy stuff isn’t “crazy” in the sense of being utterly not understandable. It is actually understandable. It is hucksterism: sleazy people pumping the audience up then selling “solutions” to these people, who feel powerless and lost.
I actually think of this as a hopeful thing. What is needed is a compelling, unifying message; a compelling mission to work together for everyone’s well being. Help people feel a sense of true empowerment, and the conspiracy theories lose their appeal.
7 Likes
The tough thing for them is they need to believe they haven’t been wasting their time, money, and energy.
If I’ve fought with family and fractured relationships with people who I grew up with, there had better be a damn good reason.
Put yourself in their shoes: if they’ve been suckered, it’s humiliating. It takes the original sense of disempowerment - the feeling that originally attracted them to the compelling message of the “flat earth” group, a space where they could feel purpose and have a place - it takes that feeling of disempowerment they originally had, and makes it even worse.
Without a truly empowering message to give them something else to belong to, it’s hard, very hard, for them to separate themselves from the feeling of belonging - the feeling of group membership - in the place they are now.
6 Likes
I’ll add that the powerful art of confirmation bias is at work here.
Confirmation Bias is the tendency to look for information that supports, rather than rejects, one’s preconceptions, typically by interpreting evidence to confirm existing beliefs while rejecting or ignoring any conflicting data.
~ American Psychological Association
8 Likes
We are all inclusive here in the Universe+ thread. 
7 Likes
Have you asked your sister to explain to you why she believes the earth is flat, @Astro, but listened with the intent to learn? I’ve watched a number of videos of people explaining why they think the earth is flat, what information they put forward to back up their claim, etc., and some of them were extremely interesting; and, while I personally wasn’t convinced, I did think that some of the arguments were put forward very well to such a point that I could understand how some people might decide that the “evidence” to the contrary could be legitimate. So, I guess it depends on whether or not you genuinely want to understand where your sister is coming from, or if it’s better for you to be able to mock and proclaim her idiocy.
To “understand” doesn’t mean to “accept”, even though people tend to conflate the two. Maybe with your sister it’s completely emotionally driven, like you said, but when you dip into some of the explanations, they aren’t primarily emotional driven. I definitely think there are some people who believe the earth is flat because of emotional factors or because they just want to be contrarian, so yours and @Matt’s points still stand on their own.
In fact, @Matt, what you described definitely exists! I’m a very logical person, and I tend to question everything. What you are describing actually fits in other areas such as the New Age movement, politics (both ‘right’ and ‘left’ circles), religion, social issues, etc. I don’t think what you’re saying is negative at all. It simply exists and people have to be aware of it in order to not be “sucked in”.
I’ve delved into a lot of what many would call “conspiracy”, and some is just as you say. Some of it is emotional manipulation, some is a lot of “what ifs” that have gone so far as to have nothing that could back them up. But other things are put forward with logical/fact information to back up what they are saying, while others could be plausible though it requires the acceptance of what we think is true, may not be so.
So, you know, who knows? We can assert that something is “true” because “everyone knows it”, but if everyone knows a lie, does that then make the lie true? We like to lean on “science”, and yet the more we do that, the more we make science into a religion. We shouldn’t “believe” in science, we should always question science because that is what a good scientist does. Even things like “gravity” or the “big bang” are just theories because while we have a lot of information that says this is likely so, something new could come along and completely shatter our previously held “truth”. Of course, we don’t want to simply believe everything that comes our way either.
We humans tend to identify with information we see as true and real, and this is why a person will fight tooth and nail to deny the validity of information to the contrary, or even be adverse to questions that could break down their own belief. You see this strongly in politics and religion. We need to have something we see as true in order to have a stable psyche and world view, but it works against us when those views are challenged. It can physically hurt to have one’s world view cracked. So we recoil, we mock, we create names for those people to “otherize” them, etc., and these things actually allow us to feel good about who we are and what we believe.
It’s easier to say, “I don’t understand why someone believes X” than to seriously look into the topic for information, because even if you still don’t believe it, you will have genuine understanding and that could possibly lead to questions about your current beliefs, which we humans definitely do not want.
Not all people who believe in “conspiracies” are idiots, emotionally led, or feel powerless and lost, but some do. I think some people find interest in these things because they are curious individuals and they are asking “why” (which we should always do). But I think some get stuck on one thing or another.
And there are always going to be charlatans.
I hope we get some people who are deeply interested in the ‘flat earth’ theories to post in here, and not feel like if they do they will be treated poorly if they share their ideas. It takes a lot of guts to have opinions and views different than the herd. But there would still be the need to be able to explain why, for example, eclipses would happen as they do if the world is flat. That’s a valid question. Where do you get your information? How would this or that work?
I think the quote/definition @AyBee posted is one that we should all keep in mind so that we don’t also get sucked into confirmation bias. To ask ourselves “how could I be wrong” is an excellent strategy. It’s good science to always try to prove your belief wrong, to test your own theories or preconceived notions.
Honestly, I think that this isn’t done enough by everyone (myself included). In the end we make our own choices, we decide on what we will believe or not; and, honestly, I don’t care what people believe–but I do care why they believe those things. Is someone just parroting information, or did they actually take time to consider and seek?
So, hey, if someone did their due diligence on the earth being flat and they’ve decided that they think it’s true? Awesome, because I have a lot of questions.
5 Likes
And now for a light interlude in the discussion… a rather lovely interactive visualisation which attempts to get across to you just how big space is.
Elegant infographic
8 Likes
I apologize for the insinuation. Thank you for pointing out my error.
About the rest, well, then there’s nothing to be done concerning your sister. You can only do what you can do, right? It doesn’t just fall on one person to be willing to understand and then accept that you don’t agree with the presented argument without making it personal. 
My long winded, questioning persona doesn’t lend well to online socialization. Thank you for your patience.
5 Likes
So, what you’re trying to say here is that space is pretty big. 
That was pretty cool!
5 Likes
Fascinating. 
4 Likes
Just seeing this now.
Will say, when you look at all the conditions that came together to make our existence even possible, let alone a reality, it’s remarkable we’re here.
But then when you also look at how practically infinite the vastness of space is, it’s still more humbling to realize we may not be the only ones.
Just the statistics of the whole thing is staggering.
9 Likes
Not to take sides, but…
Cats exist. Therefore the earth must be round. If it were flat they’d have knocked everything off by now.
Checkmate?
10 Likes
Interesting musings! 
Not possible. Science and religion are as different and insoluble as oil and water. Each have their function and each are useful in their own domain of human experience and learning, but they are not things that can be explained in one another’s terms. They are different epistemologies.
If we rephrase it a little, what I hear is:
“We like to lean on [repeating sound bites we’ve heard scientists say and/or headlines and key findings from scientific papers and articles], and yet the more we do that, the more we make [our habit of doing that sound the same as unreflective repetition of texts and ideas from religious traditions]”.
To me that captures what’s happening there. There is a pattern today of inserting sound bites and unreflective repetition into our words - has been for a long time - and it happens in a lot of topics humans talk about (scientific research and religious experience among them). It’s not a problem of science or of religion; it’s that there’s something missing in how we think and how we communicate what we (think we) know.
5 Likes
Lo! Right like waaaay back during Egypt they would’ve started the clearance.
4 Likes
I’m a Texas Tank Watcher… Never considered before that there would be other Nerds here!
7 Likes
Soooo, I’m a confirmed bookaholic. It’s my nature to always and I mean always finish a book I start. About twenty years ago I was reading a book about abductions. About halfway through the book the author started describing one of the alien types that had been reported to him. I couldn’t even finish reading. My hair stood on end, I got nauseous, I was trembling and my stress level spiked. I put that book down. I don’t remember the title or the author. I don’t remember anything about the description. I have no clue what happened to that book. To this day just the memory of trying to read it and my heart rate speeds up.
Not saying I was ever abducted but I will say I never tried reading any other book on the subject. I just can’t.
But I’m constantly sky watching for ships. 
7 Likes
Hiya @SassyBoomer 
. Now I really need to know the title. 
. When I was reading ‘The girl in the box’ i was affected in a similar way …both about abduction Ive just realised.
Oh and also watching The Ring or Ringu goose flesh just thinking about it.
6 Likes
Oh, that’s just mind blowing. And we think we’re just the sh*t, don’t we!
7 Likes
We sure do.
We have potential, but aren’t exactly doing our best yet.
6 Likes
