It’ll be like Jonestown but instead of Cyanide it’ll be
“Death by retention”
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Yes
Yes
Yes
Absolutely. Especially a totally random person that I don’t know.
I cannot speak for all men, but I know a lot of them that think that way. There was actually a time when I thought women felt the same. And I believe many men still do. Hence the dangers of this “Golden Rule”. This idea that women want to have a bunch of sex with a bunch of strange men is simply a fantasy that is reinforced by pornography and the sex industry. And I have yet to meet a single woman that has that desire. But many men still hold onto that which explains their behavior towards women.
Thank you for this. And this is a clue that answers the question that I’ve been searching for so long.
If so many women detest being objectified, why are some doing exactly what ilovemyself is pointing out?
What’s amazing is that I no longer have to wonder why this is. Without expecting it, during this confrontation, I finally have an answer that makes sense.
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Maybe cause I’m twisted
I might take it as a compliment an ego fluff, but I am egocentric, so that may be a core root of some of my problems
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I have been thinking about why. Why would I be grossed out if a man said that? Why are we grossed out by anything? To protect us. We are grossed out by poo, rotten food, etc, because they could hurt us (bacteria). I think subconsciously the same happens here. I don’t like the idea of man masturbating about me because maybe next time he will try to grab me and actually do things to me. And we have the history / culture of horrific statistics of men killing / raping / hurting women. Men are (usually) the sexual aggressors (not necessarily aggressive, but the active person in hooking up), so women have good reasons to want to protect themselves. And the fact that it is usually a man who is hanging around a park showing his dick. And men who send dick pics. And peeping toms are usually men. Women have plenty of evidence to make them cautious and protective. And in my amateur anthropologist view, this is instinctual, so even online where physical violence is not possible, it still is our reaction. Maybe in a magic land where men and women are entirely sexually equal (rape, perverts, etc either don’t happen or happen equally), and the average man is not physically stronger than a women, it would be seen as a compliment.
And that is why you are not happy if a gay man would say that to you. As the sexual aggressor (culturally), you fear he might act on his fantasies. And that is why, it has never happened in real life, but to be honest, if a lesbian said that to me, I think I would be less bothered than if a man did. Because I am more sure it would end there.
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This is significant. This is the emotion of disgust, which as you noted, exists to protect us from unhealthy things (like rotten food).
This is a different emotion: fear. Fear exists to protect us from threats to our safety.
There’s a subtle but important difference between disgust and fear: disgust is about what’s wholesome and unwholesome; fear is about what’s threatening.
If that distinction applies here, there may be two layers to what’s going on (and personally I believe there are): the act of voyeuristically masturbating to another person - whether in the form of porn or of fantasies about a person who has no interest in a relationship (and this is creepy and unwholesome - and therefore triggers disgust), and the threat of being coerced or assaulted (which is, heartbreakingly, an everyday threat for women today - and therefore, a source of fear).
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Maybe. That is an interesting point. But surely we fear getting sick and dying (in the food example?)
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You’re right, we do. I think the distinction is more about the immediacy of the threat. If there is an immediate danger, we feel fear. If something is unwholesome, we feel disgust.
To put in another way: if you’re walking down a street after dark, there are the rubbish bins and there may be men who could assault you. One of those things will make you run for your life - and it’s not the rubbish bins. (The rubbish makes you feel disgust, but not fear; your response to disgust is very different from your response to fear.)
The distinction between disgust and fear is important for men to see & to truly understand. Men don’t tend to see fantasizing about another person in terms of a threat - because for men, there isn’t a threat. They don’t live with that fear of assault. (Women do.)
As a result, when men talk about fantasizing about someone, they don’t see the problem. They may recognize it as unwholesome - like the rubbish bins in the alley - but they don’t see it as threatening.
The distinction helps men to recognize a layer they hadn’t seen before: fear. Threat.
If men work on strengthening their empathy here, it gives them another tool to help them be better people, to themselves, and to others.
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I think that you’re right there is a threat to disgusting things - and that is another reason why the whole masturbating to fantasies of a person who doesn’t want a relationship, is threatening. That type of behaviour threatens the integrity of our society - it objectifies a whole category of people (the women turned into fantasy objects), turning them into two dimensional fantasies - and that dehumanizing objectification, is a threat to our well-being, for all of us.
However - that insight isn’t something we can reach until we first understand that the masturbation in that case is both disgusting and threatening - and I don’t believe most men see it as being both those things (see above).
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I think we are basically on the same page, but the comparison of rubbish bins and a man who could assault you is not quite right, imo. A better comparison would be a man wanking and a man with a knife. Of course, the knife is scarier, but the disgust but also shock and indeed fear is there with the wanker (in all meaning of the word). I would not feel the same gut feeling from a rubbish bin.
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Thank you - I think I understand a little more clearly. I think we’re coming at this from different perspectives and probably exploring different facets of it. It’s also a little awkward crafting a “metaphor” to tease out the distinctions here 
I appreciate your thoughtful responses. Lots to reflect on.
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People are imperfect. We have to allow space for people to be human and to experience the buffet of feelings that life has to offer. How do people grow if we can’t accept them precisely where they are? Codependency is a very real disease. SOME people struggle with the unhealthy need to be validated for their bodies. SOME confuse that with love. However, others do it because they desire to feel confident, stay on trend, be in breathable material or any other host of completely valid reasons. Just like alcohol or selfish sex, some can partake with impunity. While others may enjoy the thrill and end up chasing the high of being desired.
I would like to highlight what seems to be getting lost in @JuliaLuna message. That a person in revealing clothing DOES NOT equal damaged goods. We’re not their shrink and it’s not our business to diagnose their flaws… It is not our job to inventory their behavior. It is their life and sitting in criticism of it is doing absolutely nothing to be helpful to them. In fact, it is almost always detrimental if your advice or opinion is not specifically requested.
One would expect this forum to accept you where you are on your spiritual journey, correct? Would it not be bad form to try to dissect your behavior to see why you are the way your are? Complete Understanding is not a prerequisite for offering loving kindness.
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Louder for the people at the back!
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This part is very true.
You won’t have to hear me ask anymore questions why. Because during this heated discussion, I have finally found the answer that I have been searching for the last 15 years. One that describes a trend, not an individual’s behavior.
If what you’re saying is true, that people really won’t benefit from any of this, then I won’t share what I have discovered. But if there’s any here that do want to hear (@Olivia), please let me know.
I’d very much like to know what you’ve learned
I’ve been mentioning my shame a lot recently.
This is something that I thought I dealt with 25 years ago, but I was wrong. I find myself deeply impacted by this feeling that I’m a horrible, unlovable, worthless, bad person. That’s toxic shame. And it comes out via my people pleasing, my humor, my emotional and social anorexia, and my sex and porn addiction.
A lot of men struggle with this toxic shame. But it’s reasonable to believe that a lot of women do too.
One thing that I have not yet mentioned on TS is my attachments.
An attachment is something that I use to get people to like me and provide me validation. An example would be an NGS guy owning a very nice clean car with the purpose of impressing women. NGS guys can use many things as attachments such as money, nice clothes, and a good career.
I used to work out a lot and when my wife and I met 15 years ago, I had a very fit, muscular body. I admit that I used my body as an attachment. I would wear tight fitting shirts to help show off my physique. Even though, looking back, tight shirts weren’t really in style. A lot of NGS guys use their bodies as attachments.
My point is, if men can use their body as an attachment, women can too. Not all women with low self-worth feel that they have a nice enough body to show it off, but those that feel they do will not be hesitant to use it, even if the occasion may be inappropriate.
I suspect that a increasingly large number of women in this world are using their bodies as attachments and are dressing the way they are to get validation from others as a result of the toxic shame they carry. This is subconscious. People carrying shame are not consciously aware of it. The exterior reasons for why to wear something (to impress friends, to rebel against parents, it feels good, etc.) can still be heavily rooted with this toxic shame.
Now, this does not explain every person. Nor will it explain a particular person. But it does explain a particular trend. So I cannot judge a particular person. I can only understand this process as a whole. Because of this new awareness, I’m feeling a lot more compassion towards women. And I regret that some of the responses that I made were very judgemental and critical. Because the shame that we carry is not due to any fault of our own. And it’s not as simple as putting a more modest garment on a woman. Such a person will find changing wardrobes to be an extremely uncomfortable process. If the toxic shame is not addressed from within, it will come out in external ways.
I believe that how people feel about themselves plays an integral role in how they choose to behave and how they choose to present themselves in how they dress.
And despite having more luxuries and freedoms then any generation before ours, I do believe that our generation still contains the most people dealing with depression, addictions, and unhealthy shame then any other. And it makes sense that not only does this brokenness impact people’s actions and relationships, but it also impacts how people are presenting themselves by the way they act and dress.
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I think the rise of advertising definitely plays into toxic shame on a societal level - we are all encouraged (either overtly or in more clandestine and manipulative ways) to be more, have more, be different or ‘better’. Not limited to just the way we look or present ourselves, or a particular gender etc.
Of course this impacts different people in different ways. For me it all raises up a very interesting question about the nature of choice and what it really means to be empowered.
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