This last relocation is about a serious topic, and so I leave it here should anyone wish to continue it civilly.
However, this kind of outburst on the thread is absolutely unacceptable. A member was reaching out for support for what’s obviously a very difficult situation. She did not need her thread hijacked by this kind of debate, regardless of content.
In the future, please move on, flag if against our guidelines, or take the conversation in another thread or PM. Failure to do so will result in silencing/cool down for everyone involved
You raise an important question. Friendship is like so many things we do as humans: it’s something we create, and like the human family it’s enormously diverse.
I suppose to analyze our data - the data from the interviews in this video - and draw some valid conclusions, we’ll have to start by defining our terms.
First:
What is friendship?
(I’m at work now so I’ll be checking in but off and on.)
To the guy in the video who says, “Because of physical attraction, it’s just not possible.”
That says a lot more about him than it does men in general. Probably half my friends are women and I’m the better for knowing them.
If someone doesn’t know how to respect personal boundaries and persons in favor of their own urges, they need a good look in the mirror. This is an attitude that’s been normalized way too long.
Misogyny and sexism are a messy combo that continue to permeate our world. It can be especially ingrained in regards to people’s judgements regarding women, drinking and sex.
I can’t give a valid flag, otherwise I would. This is again one of those things where all men are the bad guys. That’s bullshit. Yes, there are absolutely piece of shit men who would fit best in hell, but there’s such women too. There are female rapists too and males who have lots of consensual sex too. It goes both ways, the raping not as much as men tend to have a stronger build, but still, goes both ways. I honestly feel judged a lot for being a man. “All men are pigs”, “all men consider rape”, “all men cheat”, “men only want to have sex”. No fucking wonder I’m afraid to talk to irl girls. I’m always afraid that it’s one of those “feminist” who isn’t out for equality but superiority. And I have done nothing to deserve all those comments. You will never hear me say that all Mexicans are criminals, because they aren’t. You will never hear me say all cops are Basterds, because they aren’t. You will never hear me say all women are sluts, because they aren’t. You won’t hear me judge all people with a certain factor. If you’d say, men can be such basterds, sure, then it’s “can be” and not “are”. But implying that men are Basterds by definition, no.
Also, men are not allowed to say anything, because they are “superior” to women, so then it’s okay to shit talk them. Men aren’t allowed to shit talk women though. That’s fucking bullshit. @Olivia I really had to get that out and want you to know that there are no hard feelings on my side
Totally get you Jan. No worries. That meme is not a generalisation but a pointer that there should be discussion on the issue mentioned. Earlier there was a lot talk what is consenting and what not.
I could not find a meme that would have covered all sexes. Obviously, such demeanor is not okay despite the sexes/genders involved.
I do not hate men. I hate that a person whose been abused has to carry the shame and blame.
Edit: I’m usually nice and polite but with this topic not gonna.
Sorry, not done yet. Saying all men are pigs is similar to saying all Germans are Nazi’s. Not all Germans are Nazi’s. Germans suffered from the Nazi’s. Just like men suffer from the pigs. I often feel like a portion of women thinks men can only hurt women. That’s bullshit, I’ve been bullied plenty by pigs. Extroverted people with a big ego can be real assholes. And I said people, not men. I’ve been bullied by women too. Just saying, not only women suffer from the pigs. And not all pigs are men.
Yeah, same here. That’s absolute bullshit. By law it may be legitimate consent, but to me it’s clear as daylight that you can’t consent when drunk. I’ve never been blackout drunk, but I know that when I was drunk, my rational thinking would be gone as quickly as ice in the sun.
To address that, we could revise the meme to say “Some men shame women for having a lot of consensual sex more than they shame other men for rape” and it would be more precise. (Note that that “Some” is not required though, for the meaning to carry. See below.)
Red herring. No one said there weren’t - and that wasn’t the issue. The issue was that a not insignificant number of men have never been truly held to account - by themselves or their societies - for their exploitative and sometimes criminal behaviour in relation to women.
Red herrings are common in emotionally intense discussions when we’re being defensive. We addicts did/do the same thing when we say “I might not be perfect but you’re ___ and ___ and ___”. No one was saying they were perfect. They were saying there’s a problem. It is necessary to address that problem. And that starts with taking ownership & responsibility.
The responsibility for being better men rests with men. We have work to do.
No one was talking about you, and no one said “all men”. The “Some men…” beginning is assumed by any reasonable reader of this phrase whose thinking is not being distorted by defensiveness. All language, all discourse, operates on assumptions by speaker and by audience. In this case, the words “Some men” are assumed in the same way you’d assume “Some computers” (or “Sometimes computers”) if I said “Computers are a pain in the ass.”
Defensiveness is understandable when facing this topic. We’re unpacking centuries of injustice, and men have significant adjustment to make, down to their fundamental sense of self. Men are learning what it means to see women as equals. We can expect to feel exposed and at times uncomfortable: we’re learning to live as true equals for the first time in human history.
Red herring(s). No one accused you of saying those things, and no one said all men are bastards. (See “Some men”, above.)
False dilemma. No one is “shit-talking” men. Men are being presented with a problem and they have work to do. It is work that often leaves men feeling exposed and nervous: how to truly be equal is an intimidating task. Men are very unfamiliar with these feelings (understandable after centuries in unquestioned dominion).
It is understandable that men (Some men - but you knew I meant that right?) would feel defensive at a time like this, but that doesn’t mean they’re being “shit-talked”. It’s just they’re not used to having to take responsibility as equals. It’s that searchlight of accountability. It’s a bright light that exposes some uncomfortable things.
Yeah this is bullshit. I’m not going to flag it because then it might get removed… And I don’t want it to be removed. Because I want everyone to see, what I believe to be the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen… I don’t think anyone would believe me if they didn’t see it with their own eyes.
Men favour rapists over women who have a lot of consensual sex? So the supposition here is, the majority of men are less likely to shame a man who commits a violent sexual crime but will likely shame a woman for having a lot of consensual sex?
That is, hands down, the most stupidest thing I think I’ve ever heard in my entire life.
On what planet must the author of this meme live on?
Can we get a show of hands of all the men on the forum who would rather shame a woman for having a lot of consensual sex over a man who has fucking raped someone? Please… Someone, anyone - because this is just barbaric.
The word “some” is assumed at the beginning of the phrase here, in the same way “Some computers” (or “Sometimes computers”) is assumed if I say “Computers are a pain in the ass.” All language, all human discourse and communication, needs assumptions from both speaker and audience in order to work.
What creates the heated reactions here is defensiveness, which is understandable. The problem the meme highlights is that a not insignificant number of men have not been held to account (by themselves or their societies) for their exploitative and sometimes criminal behaviour towards women.
That specific problem exists in a broader reality, which is the emergence of true equality between men and women. This creates anxiety, uncertainty, and a sense of exposure in men, who for the first time in human history have to interact with women as true equals. We have never had to be accountable in this way before; we have for millennia been in unquestioned dominion. Now all of a sudden we are accountable and responsible, as equals. It’s uncomfortable. We’re defensive.
As addicts we’re familiar with this defensive escape pattern. It’s the same thing we did/do when someone tells us there’s a problem and we get all heated and spout off about “Maybe, but you’re no angel either!” It’s avoidance of responsibility.
There’s a full account of history to be reckoned with here. There’s amends to be made (where they won’t harm the recipient). There’s recovery to be done and a future to be built. And it starts with a searching, fearless inventory.
I don’t assume anything - assumption is the mother of all fuck ups. Language doesn’t need assumption on both parts, it needs clarity on both parts - and if you’re going to take the psychological route here with regards to addicts then I’m going to put another one out there. If someone in a mentally unstable condition threatens to kill someone, shall we just assume they don’t mean it? “Oh no they don’t mean it, let’s assume they’re not serious”… All language, well of the 4 of them I’ve learnt and 3 of which I still speak, it’s clarity that creates understanding, not assumption.
I’m not being at all defensive about men who DO act in this way… Well as far as I’m concerned I could watch them being beaten to death and not feel a flicker of emotion.
Ill tell you what, how about I assume the words “All men”…? There’s no specificity to the beginning of the sentence is there so why should I specifically assume the word “some” when the author has orated their word generally?
Now you’re talking about consent. Good! It’s gotta be clear. We don’t want to fuck (up).
Red herring.
Yes -
I didn’t question your knowledge of vocabulary or syntax - but I am happy for you.
You were saying, [In] “All language…”
Agreed.
Ok.
Would love to sit down with you and chat about justice.
Maybe - but the problem with that is the same logic works for “No men”.
A reasonable and informed person knows that it can’t refer to “all men”, so that one’s out. Same with “no men”. Both the extremes are obviously untrue.
That leaves us somewhere in the middle. You speak more languages than me so you probably know more prepositions, but the ones that pop out to me here are:
Some men
Most men (or as you phrased it, “the majority of men”)
