Sorry, not done yet. Saying all men are pigs is similar to saying all Germans are Nazi’s. Not all Germans are Nazi’s. Germans suffered from the Nazi’s. Just like men suffer from the pigs. I often feel like a portion of women thinks men can only hurt women. That’s bullshit, I’ve been bullied plenty by pigs. Extroverted people with a big ego can be real assholes. And I said people, not men. I’ve been bullied by women too. Just saying, not only women suffer from the pigs. And not all pigs are men.
3 Likes
Yeah, same here. That’s absolute bullshit. By law it may be legitimate consent, but to me it’s clear as daylight that you can’t consent when drunk. I’ve never been blackout drunk, but I know that when I was drunk, my rational thinking would be gone as quickly as ice in the sun.
3 Likes
Agreed.
10101010
2 Likes
I’m glad we could tell our pieces to eachother without forcing our opinions on eachother
2 Likes
You raise some good questions.
To address that, we could revise the meme to say “Some men shame women for having a lot of consensual sex more than they shame other men for rape” and it would be more precise. (Note that that “Some” is not required though, for the meaning to carry. See below.)
Red herring. No one said there weren’t - and that wasn’t the issue. The issue was that a not insignificant number of men have never been truly held to account - by themselves or their societies - for their exploitative and sometimes criminal behaviour in relation to women.
Red herrings are common in emotionally intense discussions when we’re being defensive. We addicts did/do the same thing when we say “I might not be perfect but you’re ___ and ___ and ___”. No one was saying they were perfect. They were saying there’s a problem. It is necessary to address that problem. And that starts with taking ownership & responsibility.
The responsibility for being better men rests with men. We have work to do.
No one was talking about you, and no one said “all men”. The “Some men…” beginning is assumed by any reasonable reader of this phrase whose thinking is not being distorted by defensiveness. All language, all discourse, operates on assumptions by speaker and by audience. In this case, the words “Some men” are assumed in the same way you’d assume “Some computers” (or “Sometimes computers”) if I said “Computers are a pain in the ass.”
Defensiveness is understandable when facing this topic. We’re unpacking centuries of injustice, and men have significant adjustment to make, down to their fundamental sense of self. Men are learning what it means to see women as equals. We can expect to feel exposed and at times uncomfortable: we’re learning to live as true equals for the first time in human history.
Red herring(s). No one accused you of saying those things, and no one said all men are bastards. (See “Some men”, above.)
False dilemma. No one is “shit-talking” men. Men are being presented with a problem and they have work to do. It is work that often leaves men feeling exposed and nervous: how to truly be equal is an intimidating task. Men are very unfamiliar with these feelings (understandable after centuries in unquestioned dominion).
It is understandable that men (Some men - but you knew I meant that right?) would feel defensive at a time like this, but that doesn’t mean they’re being “shit-talked”. It’s just they’re not used to having to take responsibility as equals. It’s that searchlight of accountability. It’s a bright light that exposes some uncomfortable things.
7 Likes
Erm…
Yeah this is bullshit. I’m not going to flag it because then it might get removed… And I don’t want it to be removed. Because I want everyone to see, what I believe to be the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen… I don’t think anyone would believe me if they didn’t see it with their own eyes.
Men favour rapists over women who have a lot of consensual sex? So the supposition here is, the majority of men are less likely to shame a man who commits a violent sexual crime but will likely shame a woman for having a lot of consensual sex?
That is, hands down, the most stupidest thing I think I’ve ever heard in my entire life.
On what planet must the author of this meme live on?
Can we get a show of hands of all the men on the forum who would rather shame a woman for having a lot of consensual sex over a man who has fucking raped someone? Please… Someone, anyone - because this is just barbaric.
2 Likes
No, that’s not the supposition.
The word “some” is assumed at the beginning of the phrase here, in the same way “Some computers” (or “Sometimes computers”) is assumed if I say “Computers are a pain in the ass.” All language, all human discourse and communication, needs assumptions from both speaker and audience in order to work.
What creates the heated reactions here is defensiveness, which is understandable. The problem the meme highlights is that a not insignificant number of men have not been held to account (by themselves or their societies) for their exploitative and sometimes criminal behaviour towards women.
That specific problem exists in a broader reality, which is the emergence of true equality between men and women. This creates anxiety, uncertainty, and a sense of exposure in men, who for the first time in human history have to interact with women as true equals. We have never had to be accountable in this way before; we have for millennia been in unquestioned dominion. Now all of a sudden we are accountable and responsible, as equals. It’s uncomfortable. We’re defensive.
As addicts we’re familiar with this defensive escape pattern. It’s the same thing we did/do when someone tells us there’s a problem and we get all heated and spout off about “Maybe, but you’re no angel either!” It’s avoidance of responsibility.
There’s a full account of history to be reckoned with here. There’s amends to be made (where they won’t harm the recipient). There’s recovery to be done and a future to be built. And it starts with a searching, fearless inventory.
2 Likes
Yes it is.
I don’t assume anything - assumption is the mother of all fuck ups. Language doesn’t need assumption on both parts, it needs clarity on both parts - and if you’re going to take the psychological route here with regards to addicts then I’m going to put another one out there. If someone in a mentally unstable condition threatens to kill someone, shall we just assume they don’t mean it? “Oh no they don’t mean it, let’s assume they’re not serious”… All language, well of the 4 of them I’ve learnt and 3 of which I still speak, it’s clarity that creates understanding, not assumption.
I’m not being at all defensive about men who DO act in this way… Well as far as I’m concerned I could watch them being beaten to death and not feel a flicker of emotion.
Ill tell you what, how about I assume the words “All men”…? There’s no specificity to the beginning of the sentence is there so why should I specifically assume the word “some” when the author has orated their word generally?
4 Likes
?
Ok.
Ok.
Now you’re talking about consent. Good! It’s gotta be clear. We don’t want to fuck (up).
Red herring.
Yes -
I didn’t question your knowledge of vocabulary or syntax - but I am happy for you.
You were saying, [In] “All language…”
Agreed.
Ok.
Would love to sit down with you and chat about justice.
Maybe - but the problem with that is the same logic works for “No men”.
A reasonable and informed person knows that it can’t refer to “all men”, so that one’s out. Same with “no men”. Both the extremes are obviously untrue.
That leaves us somewhere in the middle. You speak more languages than me so you probably know more prepositions, but the ones that pop out to me here are:
- Some men
- Most men (or as you phrased it, “the majority of men”)
Are we clear?
3 Likes
I don’t see why the word some would be assumed, it clearly states men, and to me that would surmise all men as a collective.
Maybe I’m not men 
, cause I couldn’t care less if a woman gets a lot of action, get it while the gettins good, and I absolutely judge a rapist more than a woman who gets some or even a lot.
6 Likes
You’re a man, for sure, like me. You’re just one of the (edit: majority of) men who respects women’s right to safety and sexual independence. And that’s something to celebrate 
2 Likes
I can’t help but to chime in,
Men and women can’t be platonic friends without sexual endeavors of a sort,
I am a living breathing example of that is bullshit,
One of my best friends is female, we have been friends for many years, we hang out do things together, watch movies go on adventures, you name it, hell she even let me stay at her house for a few months while I was getting my life together,
Times we had sex 0
Times we did anything at a romantic level 0
He’ll we never even kissed,
We have a amazing friendship and no other intentions are implied or made,
Maybe I’m the exception to the rule, but to be honest, it’s proof in the pudding
8 Likes
TRIGGER WARNING: SEXUAL ABUSE, RAPE CONTENT
On. This. Fucking. Planet.
Overlooking sexual abuse is a global issue across continents and cultures. Western countries and cultures have definitely improved in the last 50 years. However, that is a short transition time when you look at how long it has taken for sexual abuse to be introduced into legal systems (I’m no expert on that part, law practitioners are welcome to chime in). Like Matt said,
There are still places in this world where rapist (usually men) are not tried but blame is put on victims for “enticing”, “for sleeping around” etc (usually women) and who are then even executed.
So saying that the content of that meme is stupid is like spitting in the face of the thousands (mostly) women who get no justice. But surely you are entitled to have your opinion.
A few reads to for food of thought.
Up until 2017, let me repeat, 2017 a raped woman might end up being forced to marry the perpetrator.
9 Likes
Holy shit, this must be the first time I disagree with you. Everything you said makes complete sense and I’d agree with it all if it weren’t for one factor. I have autism so I read things differently than “reasonable” readers.
I’ve read a little further and see there are more who read it that way and question the “some” assumption. Matt, you gotta realize that not nearly everyone has had the same education as you, so maybe you shouldn’t say that reasonable men read it as some. To me it seems as if you call me and the others who assumed “all” unreasonable.
And one thing I’d like to add. It was a rant of something that has been bothering me for years. So red herrings are definitely going to be in there without me even realising.
Matt, I appreciate you a lot, but I don’t think you should assume that all/some reasonable people… I don’t know how to finish that sentence. I don’t know if you implied all or some. Fuck, your statement has got me doubting myself now. If I’d say men are pigs, I’d imply “all”. But now you’re saying that it should be assumed “some”? My brain hurts
1 Like
Interesting.
The main point of discussion seems to be “all men” vs. “some men” with regards to the content of the meme I posted. The issue addressed by the meme is the fact in many places, cultures and points in history rape victims have carried punishment for what was done to them and perpetrators were let off the hook, unchallenged in their ways. That mindset is evident in some posts OTT that were first moved to this void from another thread.
We live in “the now” and regard often the generation(s) that exist now. Instead of thinking “all men in county x” the issue here is that patriarchical structures have (had) such tendency.
Language can never be perfect since the people using it are imperfect. Don’t let technicalities keep you from seeing the heart of the matter. If you’re feeling offended, that’s ok. Maybe ask yourself why does this offend me? What does it touch or challenge in me?
Sometimes it’s a road to a mature self discovery.
Sometimes we’re afraid and oblivious to admit that the shoe fits.
9 Likes
One man would be enough. It’s absolute bullshit if men doubt, silence, question and talk over your or anyone else’s experiences.
For me it’s big ego…
I don’t know how. I don’t know how I should respond. And usually my feeling offended takes over. It’s something I seriously want to change. Do you have any advice on it? Or anyone else?
4 Likes
Always the oppressor group is the one that has the possibility and tools to change the unequal, abusive situation. In the current system victims are commonly blamed and that dynamics appears on a smaller scale in everyday life. Every man is part of this system and every man has the possibility to change it on some level. For starters, by accepting and facing the fact that this oppression exists, showing compassion and listening.
8 Likes
There isn’t really a right way or a wrong way I don’t think.
But, if you want to stop reacting from a place of anger, defensiveness etc, then the first step is noticing when you are doing it. When you can see it happening you can start to bring awareness to it, maybe even a sense of curiosity… Why am I reacting in this way? What am I hoping to achieve? A question I am trying to ask myself more is ‘do I want to be right or do I want to be happy?’ (thanks @Kareness!).
Sometimes we still react from that place, that’s ok. We are humans and we are not perfect. We have emotions and good days and bad days. Trying to be kind to ourselves when we fall short of our own expectations is just as important as trying to be kind to others.
This is stuff I have learned from mindfulness, meditation and yoga stuff I have done anyway. And stuff I am trying to put into practice more 
5 Likes
What I said is, it doesn’t - and can’t - mean “all men”. This type of phrasing - omitting a quantifier (some, all, no, none, etc) - is widely practiced and understood without argument, as in the phrase “I’m allergic to dogs” [except for Samoyeds, poodles, and a few other breeds - but that detail is understood by the listener, who knows from experience that different people react differently to different dogs]; I mentioned “Computers are a pain in the ass” (obviously not all computers all the time; see above). There are many, many others.
You don’t have to be “educated” to understand this. Life experience teaches this. And we all get on fine, regularly understanding the word “some” is intended.
All communication assumes certain basic knowledge on the part of the listener. To fixate on the absence of the word “some” here - when we do not bat an eye at its absence if we’re talking about dogs or computers - is to introduce an unhelpful, unnecessary distraction into a crucially important conversation; that distraction is an evasion of the true problem, it silences the important talk about the experience of millions of women worldwide. When we men get all huffy and pedantic about introducing “some” here, it’s one more example of how we
We have work to do to do a searching, fearless inventory of ourselves as men. We have to be aware of what (some/enough of) our forebears and peers have done (some/enough of the time). We still occupy most of the positions of leadership and influence in the world and we need to speak up and be proactive, and make clear that we recognize this history of exploitation and abuse and that it has to stop. This is our responsibility as men (all of us); it is not women’s responsibility. (This is important - many women have experienced abuse or trauma because of this history, and it is often painful or even retraumatizing to speak about it or give advice. They may not even know what advice to give. There is considerable information and advice online, in TED talks, in articles, and from many, many other reliable sources.)
We need to be better men. As Tomek notes,
I am deeply grateful to the men who have chimed in here. It is certainly true that I have responded with some challenges to some specific points here but every single one of these men has made clear that they see the problem of the disregard and abuse of (too many) women, and that they object to it, strongly:
@anon89207786
@anon84416494
@CaptAZ
@Fury
@Tomek
@Conor689908
(Forgive me I may have missed some names - if so please know I mean you too!)
As Jan noted,
If one man is enough for there to be a problem, then one man is enough for there to be (the beginning of) a solution.
We have at least six men here. That’s a good start for building a future of justice, equality, and respect.
Tell me what you really think.