EarningRelationship's Accountability Journal: Kratom, Alcohol, Prostitutes

Life in Recovery
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Young guy entering my 30s here. Just setting up my first accountability thread to eliminate these substances from my life.

I have been clean from porn and masturbation for almost two years which is still hard to believe considering how much of a hold that crap used to have on me. Very proud of that accomplishment and it gives me confidence that I’ll be able to rid myself of alcohol, kratom and pros.

Things have become problematic recently. What started out as an occasional thing (drinking, kratom, hookers) has become a constant temptation (I am single so thankfully I am not cheating on my GF or significant other).

I am surrounded by kratom temptations. Smoke shops, kratom bars and gas stations on every corner. Same thing with massage parlors and alcohol to a lesser extent.

Kratom and pros are my most problematic addiction:

Although alcohol used to be a big issue and I kind of did use kratom to replace it. The biggest risk with the alcohol is DUI which would ruin my business as a contractor.

I am currently day #2 detoxing after getting a bit too comfortable using 7Hydroxy kratom pills (basically hit like perks). The withdrawal has been really shitty. Can’t sleep. Stomach and back aches. Tired and moody. This is impacting my motivation to work which is impacting my finances. It’s also making me feel very very negative about my life despite the fact that I am in a very strong position after years of fighting for my independence as a business owner.

It helped watching a bunch of kratom withdrawl videos on Youtube yesterday. People have reported the same symptoms they have experienced from heroin and pain killer withdrawal. People have reported similar withdrawal symptoms as mine: stomach pain, depression, lethargy, insomnia, etc. This reminds me of going through porn/masturbation withdrawal which was by far the hardest addiction I had.

The pros have been an expensive method of stress relief costing me over $1k in the past 2 months and probably closer to $2-3k, maybe more in the past year.

Kratom is not cheap either, especially the hydroxy pills. Close to $37 for 4 pills and once I’m using regularly, 4 pills is easy to do in one day and I’m sure my tolerance would increase further.

Basically: spiritually weak, socially weak, romantically weak. I live a lonely life in many ways or at least I feel lonely.

My triggers are tough days at work, dealing with new responsibilities as a recently licensed contractor, feeling overwhelmed, physical pain, loneliness, self-pity, boredom, self-loathing, social anxiety (BIG), spiritual void.

The reason I named myself “EarningRelationships” is because I am tired of just using substances to get a feeling of connection to others or to my own sense of joy, etc. I want to break out of that and finally do the necessary work to earn my state of positive energy, spiritual stillness and joy, connections to others, etc. None of these things just come to you unless you happened to be born into some ideal situation.

Day #2 sober from K/A/P and I plan on making it to at least 90. I would not mind occasionally doing any of these things especially alcohol (wine w family) but for now, I know it’s time to cut them all out until further notice.

The biggest problem with any of these substances is that when you have been sober for a long period, say 90 days, and you decide to do one of them, your mind instantly changes the moment you ingest said substance. In other words, when you have been sober for a long time and are thinking about doing a substance, your mind is in a totally different state of perception than how it will be while in a state of consumption. You change the moment you do the substance. This is why one relapse can easily turn into a 6 month cycle for a lot of us. This is why i am heavily considering simply eliminating these substances completely from my life but we will see after I hit day 90.

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Welcome and best wishes for your journey.

I wish I was a wine with the family every 90 days or so type of addict. Sadly I am not so it a no-go for me and indeed probably most of this forum.

I do hope you are able to figure it all out and find a way that works for you. You can definitely do it one day at a time.

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Appreciate it. Yeah, we will see about the “wine with family” thing. Kratom & pros do have to go though!

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This is a very slippery slope you are putting yourself on. You know these things are bad for you and your mental health and yet you believe that taking 90 days away from them, only to go back to them is somehow serving you? My advice to you would be to look at why you hold this belief? Why only 90 days? Why do you think it can be a casual thing if it isn’t possible right now.

I did pretty much the same thing last year. Told myself I would not drink alcohol for 6 months starting January, and I barely made it 3 weeks. Took months and a black out to finally see that there is no going back.

Ultimately, we are avoiding the feelings we are meant to feel by using these unhealthy coping skills. There are several other healthy ways to help us in this life, we have to choose to use those instead. We have to choose ourselves.

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Appreciate the support. Yeah, I am going to heavily consider quitting them for good but I want to make it to day 90 first and foremost before I consider a heavier commitment.

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Welcome to the forum! Just a gentle suggestion: You might wanna start by not referring to sex workers as ‘hookers’ and ‘substances’. These are human beings you’re talking about. Just like you. With thoughts, hopes, dreams, and personal issues. Not objects. Maybe if you can start seeing them as people, you’d be less inclined to get high and purchase services they may or may not be selling out of their own free will?

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Hi @EarningRelationships, nice to meet you. My name is Matt and I am recovering from a sex addiction.

I’ve sent you a PM and we can chat more there.

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Welcome to TS, @EarningRelationships! This has been a really helpful and healing community for me and many others. I hope it can do the same for you.

@Amy30 makes a great point. I’m not addicted to pot shops, I’m addicted to pot. I don’t blame the budtenders for my addiction, they are just trying to make a living. The same with sex workers–they’re people like you and me, living their own lives. It does sound like you may have a sex/lust addiction, which is different from saying that you’re “addicted to hookers.” While I don’t personally share this addiction, I know that a lot of folks on this forum do, and there are a lot of resources. I know that @Matt is a good one from what I’ve seen :slight_smile:

Good luck and I hope that you can find healing and health!

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6 posts were merged into an existing topic: Derailment void / Off topic 2021 to present

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I would prefer people save the moral and psychological judgments and statements for another forum/thread. I’m a construction worker with several addictions, not an english major or someone overly self-critical/sensitive and Im already taking a big step by sharing my thoughts publicly. I am not here to talk about the psychological profiles of prostitutes, sex-workers or whatever you wanna call it. I am here to talk about my addiction to different acts/substances. That does not mean that I am a sociopath that views sex-workers as non-human entities. If you don’t like my way of writing, I would offer my own gentle suggestion: find another thread. I’m here for support and just a place to be held accountable, not to be shamed by people who get caught up in semantics about how I write.

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Day #3 of 90 checking in:

The major parts of withdrawal were days #1 and #2 respectively.

I had the wherewithal to hit the gym for a light training yesterday followed by a jiujitsu class which ended with a nice round of intense sparring. I worked up a great sweat.

I instantly felt better. I also hit the sauna after hitting the gym so I ended up taking like 3 showers yesterday.

One of the things I really wrestle with is a spiritual void you might say. Since I am quite estranged from family or romantic ties and have been for a while, I feel the need to take on a spiritual path with more devotion.

This morning I contemplated taking on an eastern view more seriously notably Zen, Taoism and its combination with martial arts which is why I ordered Bruce Lee’s Tao of Jeet Kun Do to keep me company during my journey moving forward.

I think an intense dedication to a combination of martial arts and eastern spiritual practice such as reading, meditation and hopefully finding a mentor will be a game changer for me. I’m also looking into online coaches who have a background in this type of Way and already have a meeting Thursday.

Day #3 and I am feeling a lot better. Sleep was still very jumpy but a lot better than the past 3 days where I got very little overall.

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I feel the same way after a workout. Good for you.

This is very common. I had / have the same thing. This was difficult for me personally to understand because I had had exterior spiritual actions for a very long time, but I realized I hadn’t been truly looking deep into myself, and sharing what I found with other people who could lend helpful perspective.

That’s good news. Keep searching and keep finding healthy paths forward. Connection and communication with people who can help you in a constructive way is crucial.

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My experience has been that the acute times of withdrawal go past that. You say you’ve had several weeks- and months-long periods before. Did you notice a pattern of withdrawal?

Edit to add:

This list of withdrawal symptoms is from Patrick Carnes’s book Facing the Shadow: Starting Sexual and Relationship Recovery. Carnes is an expert in sex addiction recovery, both as a researcher and as a clinician (there are many excellent interviews with him on YouTube - it’s worth listening to them to gain perspective; his work really helped me in the early years of my journey).

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Thanks for your responses Matt,

I read the section on the screenshot.

Yeah, I am talking more about the acute withdrawal from kratom that was at its worst on day 1 and day 2. The sex withdrawal is a bit more complicated. Right now, there are major financial risks associated with it which help me abstain but as long as I have other things going on, it’s hard to notice when it’s withdrawal. A lot of it is feeling bored/depressed and wanting that release. This can happen at any time and I suspect it will keep happening until I have a stronger sense of community/engagement.

I wonder if I should get into latin dance class or something that allows for engagement with women but on a less sexually charged level.

Sex impulse is tricky and is definitely not going anywhere. It’s what happens next after the impulse and what systems you install into your life that help you stay grounded.

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True, but I think you are being too abstract in your thinking and planning here.

My suggestion is:

  • recognize that the so-called “sex impulse” is an impulse no different from the “eat a slice of bread” impulse: it is optional; always, always optional (as long as you believe there is something inevitable or fundamental about the so-called “sex impulse”, you are chaining yourself to a harmful mode of thinking) - there is never any reason you will die or suffer by not doing the behaviour (any more than you would by not doing the behaviour of eating a slice of bread)

  • at first this recognition :arrow_up: will be intellectual only; in time if you work to develop your understanding and acceptance, it will internalize and will become second nature to you

  • avoid interactions with women that are not required because of a professional or legal obligation (do not join the dance classes): you need to get much more stable and grounded in yourself personally before you can interact with women in a way that is respectful and safe; you’re not there yet and you’re a long way off

  • you do need a community: in my case I joined a sex addiction recovery group run by therapists trained in Patrick Carnes’s approaches to sex addiction recovery (I didn’t search for him specifically, I just searched “sex addiction help in [my city]” and joined the groups, and they were doing those books); another way to do it is to join a sex addiction recovery program that is demonstrated by the successful, sustainable, safe sobriety of the people who work its program effectively and responsibly (Neal has a good list of these here: Resources for our recovery - #64 by NealRecoveryCA) (be conscious when reviewing these programs that there are unfortunately some voices you will hear that have no experience with working these programs in a responsible way, and these voices will give you their opinions about the programs; you’ll have to remember to look into it yourself and not make your decisions merely on second- or third-hand information from people who have no firsthand experience with successful use of the programs)

Do not give up. This journey takes resolve and you have to be willing to let go of a lot of your basic assumptions. Take it one day at a time and take advice from people who have direct personal experience with battling their own personal sex addiction. There is a great deal of wisdom and success in the community of people in sex addiction recovery.

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Appreciate the words of wisdom. Really do.

There are some things I agree with but others I disagree.

Every case is different and if you had the full context, you may change your mind.

But again, appreciate your support.

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Day #4 sober from KAP (kratom, alcohol, pros) I might as well call it “sober from KRAP” because ultimately, those substances had a much bigger downside for me.

I feel like alcohol could be a once in a while thing for certain people but I do not believe that I have the community, support, and other resources in place for it to not become something too risky. Maybe if I lived in a small village in Italy and lived a different life, a glass of wine would be a different thing but I sure as hell don’t live that way. My life is very different. It’s difficult. This makes me very prone to addiction and compulsive behavior.

I felt nervous and in a low/depressive mood quite a bit today. Things got better when I went to jiujitsu class. I felt empowered and my body was moving and learning new skills. I also hit the gym shortly afterwards. This elevated my mood especially when I listened to some music. Right afterwards, I went to a zen center and did a meditation class.

These are all examples of me “earning” my state of mind and maybe down the line, I will “earn some relationship(s)” from it. When I used to sip kratom at lounges, I felt more inclined to connect with others around me, often having lively conversations with people I just met, sometimes revealing too much personal stuff in a kratom-induced wave of enthusiasm/euphoria. The next day I would cringe about it and wonder how much I actually liked any of the people I spoke to. As much as I wish it was easier, true connections must be earned in my experience. True, sometimes you just click with someone but as you get older, things change. As a grown man, I’ve become much more aware of risks and more judgmental/analytical. I evaluate people based on all types of criteria and I’m quick to dismiss someone as not worthwhile or another as too risky. I’m on edge. Kratom helped soften that edge a bit but at what cost? How authentic were those kratom-induced connections? Would they rely on more and more kratom to keep deepening? The answer is yes in most cases making it too high risk.

Particularly, I am drawn to zen. The simplicity, the austerity, the requirement of participants to be fully engaged, to be fully committed to being present with no distractions and to simply stay with it, whatever it is. This fascinates me. I love the challenge. The community. The longer retreats that challenge you to sit through the silence with a clear and sober mind for long stretches. The lack of a need for narratives and explanations. The mysteries. The lineage that traces back across thousands of years. Reading Robert Bly’s book Iron John made me realize the need for father energy. When you know that the teachings in zen can be traced back through a series of strong fathers/patriarchs, it gives me a sense of security knowing that I stand on the shoulders of giants, real men of impeccable integrity and men who earn their states.I am still Christian in many ways and that is indeed my cultural heritage but I don’t feel the same level of engagement internally when going through rituals. The church has become weak in my area and does not inspire the same type of response in me that zen does.

This is why I am playing with the word “commitment” more and more. If I was a more committed member of an organization be it a church, a jiujitsu school, a zen temple, anything… I would have a chance to earn my connections with others. So far, I’ve dodged building deeper connections with people because I always wanted to keep my options open. However, constantly keeping your options open comes at a high cost too sometimes, notably you end up with more superficial connections if any connections at all…

This is going to be my mantra moving forward: I am committed to earning my state and earning the relationships in my life one day at a time and going through the easy periods and the hard periods with a sober and present mind at ALL costs. It won’t be easy but as a man, I did not sign up for an easy life. I signed up for a beautiful life. (female readers: don’t mind that I use terms like “as a man, etc”. These terms motivate me and this is my thread. I write for myself first and foremost.

I really am starting to like the idea of just going fully sober. So what if there’s some study about alcohol and how some people live long despite it and the effects of reservatrol on your heart or beer on kidney stones. I’m not going to rely on wine for my heart and on beer for some future kidney stones. I have way better lifestyle practices that can do wonders for my body and with way less risk.

I guess I’m going to have to become that guy that goes on a first date and just says “I don’t drink” when we go to the bar/venue. So be it. Yes, it will cost me in terms of nervousness and maybe I won’t be as smooth but great, now I have a chance to develop my inner resources to talk to women and move things forward without the rushed alcohol induced night leading to sex.

I finally slept last night somewhat. Although I did wake up around 4AM with my mind racing. Concerns about my new business, taxes, etc. Being in a position to make big decisions takes a while to get used to. I’m going to have to develop thicker stomach lining. And what better commitment to make to help me become a masterful business owner than to commit to sobriety and to really working for the skills and traits of a great businessman?

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Maybe… but you’ve given a good amount of detail already. I’ve interacted with many people in sustained recovery from sex addiction (sustained means years and years) and there are common threads to what works for them to sustain their recovery. There are also common threads to what works for inhibiting recovery. The evidence I have so far is that the trend for you is to not gain traction in your recovery, because you believe you are different.

Please keep posting. Your journey matters. Every person’s journey in recovery from sex addiction matters, and because it is a journey with common features - like journeys to build boats or traverse deserts - the wisdom of those who came before is a valuable tool to survive.

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If I may add my thoughts regarding hobbies/activities with the opposite sex…

For myself, I have always been a fairly active person, I partake in various hobbies and there are women & girls that also take part in these hobbies.
I never stopped doing these hobbies. They are important for me as they keep my body and brain fit and are good for my mental wellbeing.

I have found different hobbies to have different levels of difficulty in terms of how much I catch myself looking at the women and having to make sure I don’t ogle.
For example, in rugby in the winter when everyone is wearing tracksuits and we’re focused on running around and organising a defensive or attacking structure it’s a lot easier to focus on that and my eyes don’t wander.
Whereas if I go bouldering indoors, the environment is a lot more relaxed (i.e. there’s a lot more sitting around in between climbs), the women tend to wear less clothing and it’s a lot tighter fitting (to clarify, I am not blaming them for what they wear, merely stating the fact that I have found this to be more difficult to stop myself from staring and objectifying them), also as you climb you may put yourself into a “compromising position” in terms of flexibility where it can be difficult to know where to look.
I enjoy both rugby and climbing, and will continue to do both, but I am aware that climbing is more of a risk to my sobriety.

I don’t think I would look to dancing classes as a way to interact with women when I’m wanting to avoid objectifying them sexually. A lot of people see dancing as very sexual, and I think there’s plenty of other sports or activities that could be taken up which would pose a lesser risk to one’s sobriety.

Tldr - I don’t think it’s viable to stop doing activities that are good for your physical and mental wellbeing. Just be careful about the activity you choose, and maybe consider activities that are less sexualised.

Hope that is useful :sweat_smile:

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I appreciate the supportive comments regarding staying sexually sober. However, I’m not going to avoid women completely or avoid enjoying dance class or other activities. That is my personal decision. I can see why some men might choose to avoid those types of activities. For me, the main issue was the massage/sex parlors. That’s what I need to avoid the most.

P.s. I did just hire a coach to help me throughout the coming year in terms of mindset and accountability and I believe this is going to be a total game changer. I’ve never hired a coach of that caliber before. So sh*t is being handled but in MY way which is what this thread is for. I appreciate comments but ultimately I will select the nuances of my upcoming changes/commitments.

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