I’m here, I need help and I need community

Hey Blue! Thanks for the message :slight_smile:

What resonated with me was the vulnerability that Catherine Gray displayed in the book. I saw a lot of myself in her including the crazymaking, the drama, the selfishness, the denial, and especially the cynicism. She mirrored what I was going through and I had to reckon with the fact that alcohol was corroding my values and my code of conduct. I place a lot of value in my personal honor and through her I realized that alcohol and my ideal self do not mix. I am too light, too optimistic to dabble with the dark.

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Hey! I’m doing well today. I had a beautiful breakfast with my best friend where we had a heart to heart, then we went to the gym, and now I am back home and ready to work on a new project. How are you?

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Thank you! I read your post on compulsory niceness. It really resonated with me! Hope you’re well :slight_smile:

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Hi dj! It might not be easy but it’s definitely worth it. You deserve a life of peace , calm and happiness. Let yourself have it!!

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Thanks for the welcome. Already learning so much :smiley:

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I believe in you!! And I’m here for any extra support that you may need

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That sounds nice!
I had a not so good start into the day but it evolved nice & productive with doing overdue chores and garden work. Enjoying the nice weather atm as I’m thinking about what to do with the rest of it. I’m satisfied with today’s achievements. Thank you for asking :hugs:

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Nice weather sounds so nice :blush: hope it come up north to Berlin soon so we can both profit!

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I love that and resonate with that as well. How inspirational!

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Thank you for reading! We all have our challenges and setbacks but here I find the courage to spring forward. I hope you do as well :slightly_smiling_face: feel free to reach out any time

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Finally reading Allen Carr’s book. I’m hooked! Thanks for the suggestion.

Edit: I’ve gotten 1/3 of the way into the book already. I have some big reservations about Allen Carr as a person and the 90% number he keeps throwing around. I recognize that the book was published in 2001 but I’ve looked up the numbers and it seems that even then, that’s not right—furthermore he doesn’t cite his sources.

The only piece of evidence that comes close to this number is a Gallup poll tracking alcohol consumption since 1939 and this number ranges from 55-71% with an average of 63%.

In the UK, I consulted a report from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation which tracked alcohol consumption in Great Britain, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland from 1979-2009 and nothing came close to the 90% number. In fact in 2019 that number was 48% according to Drinkaware. The closest and only confirmation of this 90% number is a statement from the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism which states

Nearly 90 percent of adults in the United States report that they drank alcohol at some point in their lifetime

Which is not the same as what Carr is saying.

I did more research into his life and his disputes with medical professionals other such institutions and I’m more inclined to agree with them. There’s just something about his tone, his delivery and what I feel like is a misrepresentation of facts that I don’t enjoy. I wish he would just speak about what he knows rather than make grand sweeping statements as I bristle at that. I’m going to continue reading because the message some of what he’s saying is useful. Other things I don’t really care for.

However, I did read an essay in the Atlantic this morning that pretty much criticized the AA model and people like Allen Carr but I didn’t agree with this article either. I didn’t like how the article dismissed people who had direct experience with addiction as less qualified to talk about addiction than scientific experts who strictly rely on empirical evidence. Empirical evidence is useful but theoretical and experiential problem solving is just as important. After all, I’m still skeptical of empiricist based medical knowledge because eugenics, defining homosexuality as mental illness, and diagnosing unmarried women who were melancholic as hysterical and then committing them to psychiatric wards were all based on empirical “evidence” at one point.

I also picked up Alcohol: A History by Rod Phillips and Alcohol, A Social and Cultural History by Mack Holt because I find it more useful to contextualize the historical, social, political, and religious uses of alcohol within ages past and how this relates to how alcohol functions in our current society.

Still thank you for the recommendation, I’ve learned something nonetheless!

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I never read Carr’s alcohol book. So I’m not sure what the 90% is about. I did read his quit smoking one 6.5 years ago, although I did go against his recommended method by reading it after I already quit. Also I ignored all the numbers he threw around, and didn’t do any of his paid quit smoking courses that were flourishing then.

What it did help me with, was changing my mindset. It gave me the last push towards seeing smoking as all bad, all stupid, all addiction. No benefits whatsoever to it. Smoking is just a stupid lying killing addiction and that’s really all it is. That’s what that book taught me and that’s what helped me making it much easier to stay smober (sober fom smoking). Not smoking became much less of a fight. I took what helped me and left the rest. I guess it’s about the same with his quit alcohol book. Good for the mindset, less convincing when it comes to the man himself and the money he’s making out of it.

I belief very much in peer support. Peer support which comes in many forms. Per support for which there is empirical evidence that it works. I’m convinced AA works because of the peer support that is found there, just like SMART, Recovery Dharma, and other forms of peer support. Not because of the specific programs these different support groups offer. And again, there is scientific evidence for this claim I make.

I still find my peer support here, after in the first months of my sobriety I went to real life AA, NA and secular Dutch meetings. I might still go back to those, as I am working on my social anxiety and awkwardness in therapy.

And the last is the scientific part of how I try to treat myself regarding my addictive traits. I’m doing (scientifically based and professionally lead) psychotherapy and try to work on my psychological and developmental problems that caused my addictions in the first place.

So for me it’s both peer support and professionally scientifically based treatment. I feel I need both. For others either one might be enough, and based on my own knowledge right now I’d say peer support comes first. I have no proof for that though :disguised_face:.

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I think we are definitely in agreement. I’m trying to find the best way to continue this journey and I’m touring the different methods to see which ones work for me. I like the shift in perspective that Carr is asking me to make and that’s the biggest takeaway for me!

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Great research on this, my friend. I read This Naked Mind and she does indeed source her statistics as does Ann Dowsett Johnston and many others.

As for AA, as a person who did very well in Statistics courses and uses them daily, there simply is no way to come up with any meaningful data to support a success rate of the program. What I can tell you is that my local AA group, The Luckiest Club and this incredible community were my main and crucial supports. Would not be sober or alive today without all three.

Finally, I’m putting way more credibility and respect for a therapist/counselor who also is in recovery over one that is not in recovery. Experiential learning trumps greatly any learning that has to be taught and studied through books and lectures.

Glad you joined this community. Hi @Mno !

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I’ll take a look at those books as well. My personal library is gonna have a new section at this rate and I love it :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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Hi DJ,

I’m new here myself, been on here about 10 days and still trying to get used to it! I think you have made a fantastic decision! It sounds like you have some great tools in place to help you, best of luck with your journey and remember you are not alone, :grinning:

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Hey Lozza,

It’s absolutely amazing here. So much love, support, knowledge, and wisdom. Please take advantage and join in the conversation. Welcome :hugs:

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I agree here with @mno while Alan does make a lot of big sweeping statements and throws around loose numbers, I didn’t pay close attention to those figures. I think my goal with this book so early in my recovery, was to change my perspective. Trying to un brain wash myself around the magic of alcohol and retrain my brain into how poisonous and terrible it is. The repetitive nature of the book and it’s overall message I feel really helped in that regard.
I think quit like a woman really drove home a lot more of the takeaway messages for me covering some of what mno speaks about too. The sense of community that heals and touches on a some of the reasons I don’t find AA particularly helpful, although other groups can be profoundly helpful. I find this one, talking sober to be such an important tool for me.
Anyway, I also think you will find a HUGE variety of sober literature to choose from @liminal.rehab I really found immersing myself in reading about sobriety really helped me feel prepared and not so alone. I hope it’s doing the same for you :heartpulse:

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Oh I think the hint you were trying to give me is resonating in my brain space right now and I thank you for the recommendation! I’m literally disgusted thinking about alcohol, the more I look up alcohol the more I’m convinced that I do not need to be drinking it. Just wild how undereducated I was about this. This is not responsible at all to leave people to their ignorance…just reckless!

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Love that book. I am also taking a lot from Push Off From Here, which I am just finishing. I think you would find it of interest.

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