We may want more safe spaces here as we are dealing with some serious stuff and require a serious place where healing is fostered. We aren’t ‘the world’… just our little corner of it. Providing a safe space for suffering substance abusers and addicts is a positive IMHO. The world is hard enough on us all. Offering safety and comfort is a positive IMHO. YMMV of course.
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Absolutely Sassy, thank you. 
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I have no problem to avoid a reply when I feel it’s gonna get out of hands. I just breath 3 times, focus on the fact that a discussion shouldn’t be a fight with a winner and a loser, but an exchange of ideas. I simply don’t reply. And I move on.
I’m more worried for those who feel attack. Like sassy said (brightly), this is not a place for war, recovery is fragile.
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This makes me soooo sad!!!
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I want more safe spaces in the world, and here. Surely just because the world doesn’t provide them, it doesn’t mean we should just accept that? The world is often a very unsafe space for women, but we don’t just shrug our shoulders and think that’s just the way it is. We can all challenge this and try to make the world a safer, and better place.
I am fully supportive of free speech and sharing opinions. Noone should be silenced for disagreeing. I just think there are ways of approaching things, and if we try and be kind then that can only be a good thing. Often people coming here are at their most vulnerable, and have possibly just about kept it together that day.
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Back to the ‘main’ subject, does anyone feel that they would really benefit from the structure offered by religion? I really enjoyed the social side of religion throughout my childhood/teens, and the regular pram services, toddler groups were invaluable when my children were small. I often wonder how many people go to Church, not for the religious worship, but because of the peace the buildings provide, the structure and support.
Is there a way of replicating this without religion?
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Totally agree, and I’ve never gone to church! My husband says it was one of the main reasons his mom (a widowed mother) continued to attend after her beliefs changed.
The community I moved to a few years back and have lived in through the pandemic is very religious, old churches that have been around often since the late 1800s and there is a lot of community organizing and services offered to people through them. Particularly Catholic and Lutheran community services. That’s not counting the instant community people have by attending a church. It’s a smallish town and it’s been hard to find a network here, but slowly but surely we are finding our people. I see what you’re getting at, for sure, but there are other ways, just not as easy to find sometimes.
We have online Meetups that people can join for things like new moms and hiking groups and whatnot but I haven’t looked into that here yet.
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I like some of the pageantry of religion. But really the old church buildings are cool. I don’t go to church or prescribe to a religion but those are what I see that might draw people to it
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I can see the benefits of a structure like that. The social benefits. Although it doesn’t have to be a religion to provide this. I come from a family of socialists, anarchists and communists and they had their own organizations too, from local to national, political parties, newspapers, youth and women organizations. Just like the dominating protestant and catholic churches did too over here.
There is a danger however. When dogmas becomes leading, exclusion is close at hand. And the opposite to inclusion and social belonging can happen to individuals that don’t fit the mould. Like we see happen all too often, in religions and elsewhere.
And like has been said before, atheists really are not a coherent group. They are defined by a lack of belief in a deity. That’s no base for coming together and forming a community.
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Yes you are right about the inherent problems. Some of the most passionate atheists I know have church school backgrounds and deeply resent religion due to the prejudices they were exposed to.
I think @RosaCanDo was spot on about the instant community, and I do miss that. Also, a little partial to the pageantry myself @Englishd
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I think this is significant. Community is so central to human well-being. A well-balanced community has spaces for everyone, and a balance of freedom and reasonable social expectations.
And there’s the thing: expectations. So much of this revolves around - emerges from - expectations.
What are the nuclei around which communities develop and evolve? What nuclei / community “hearts” are available now (or potentially available soon) which could serve that purpose - drive community connection and evolution - without being religious? It’s an interesting and I think important question.
There’s no right answer. But I think you raise a good point Menno with your observation.
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So interesting.
I think that modern life has in part driven community apart. We can be self sufficient now, without anyone else’s direct support. Whereas not that long ago, and still in other parts of the world, you need other peoples direct help around you to survive and take care of each other.
Religion gives people a reason outside of their little unit to come together. But without that, there’s not really an impetus to come together unless you have some passion or strong political belief kind of like what Menno referred to. I suppose for most of us your family unit becomes your little community. Friends and colleagues
That’s why I think these days there’s so much depression and anxiety because we have all become so separated. We are materially wealthy but we’ve lost sight of our basic needs.
Some people now band together to live as communities, growing food together, sharing chores etc. I think that would be really nice
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Completely agree with you and @Matt Community is something I really need and don’t know how to achieve that without a hobby or belief (be it a sport, craft, politics, academic etc.)
I often think I would like to join a commune, but then remember I am a compulsive volunteer and need my own space 
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There are quite a few intentional communities (as communes are often called now) around where I live…including one in our tiny town. There were/are many back in Vermont as well. As a child of the 60s and 70s, I have always been called to such communities…yet never lived long term in one.
One of the reasons we moved to western North Carolina after a brief stint in coastal Florida (aside from 4 seasons and no hurricanes and a bunch else) was community. We missed the community aspect of living in a small town. Sure there are drawbacks, but a rural small town allows you to meet just about everyone and interact with them…grocery store, hair salon, nursery, feed store, farmer’s markets, events, etc. It’s a way of life we missed in Florida where so many folks are just passing thru or there seasonally.
Here in the Bible belt, the church is the #1 community builder. First question is which church do you attend…tho I rarely get asked …likely the tie dye or rainbow tank tops I generally sport. 
I know for my parents, their church in Florida is incredibly inclusive and progressive for a Catholic church AND provides their community…so many functions, groups, pot lucks, etc.
And as Derek said, the pageantry and beauty of old (Catholic) cathedrals are lovely to visit, but offered repression for me as a woman.
Finding your tribe is a process and can be challenging for sure…especially in a new setting. I search for yoga studios, volunteer opportunities, like minded groups, etc. It helps for me that we moved to an area well known as a hiking, kayaking, outdoors mecca…bonding in nature is healing for me. 
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Yeah @ArtMama! Keep looking around until you find YOUR way. When your path leads you to sobriety get there any way that is helpful. 
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So as a first step we’ve determined that material well-being alone does not make community.
We’re at the beginning of a differential diagnosis:
Now that we know the necessary elements cannot be solely material in nature, we are left to ask: what remains?
And of course a long list of things remains:
- Social visits / social events / shared meals (these are physical yes, but arise from the human instinct to connect, to care)
- Education (knowledge is not material)
- Compassion
- Justice
- Meditation / calm reflection
- Love
- Etc etc (there’s probably hundreds more non-material things)
Are one or more of these things sufficient to stimulate and sustain community?
Again there’s no right answer. We’re whittling away what we know does not do it, which even if we never find what does, helps us understand the contours of community better than we did.
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Recovery Dharma might be your thing. The book is cheap, and it’s the recovery program I moved on to
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I love what you post!
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I’d like to make a book recommendation. I’m only a third of the way in but I’m loving it. It’s written in a somewhat academic style but still very accessible.
I first heard her interviewed on NPR and was intrigued. There is a section on “belonging” that reminds me very much of this conversation on the thread, but there are other interesting aspects that are helping me wrap my brain around some things in my life. A warning, there is lots of discussion of religion and examples of how religious/spiritual people find meaning in their life, but she always had the alternative viewpoint of non-religious folks expressed. She breaks it down through scientific studies that have been done and follows it up with real world, real people examples. I’m diggin’ it so far.
Edit to say, the complete tag line is “crafting a life that matters in a world obsessed with happiness.
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I’ve added this to my ever growing to be read list. Sounds great! Thanks!
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