I’ve recently done a few online meetings to see what AA is about. At first I found the meetings quite eye opening and the community uplifting. But has I’ve started going through the steps I have a few reservations. Interested to hear some perspectives and insights on this.
Finding character defects and admitting your part in mistakes / resentments etc. Whilst I agree it’s important to own you to your part, for me, self criticism and perfectionism is a huge issue and is something I’m trying to learn to lessen and become more self-compassionate with my counsellor. It feels like AA is the opposite to this?! Am I misinterpreting?
I also don’t understand why fear is a character defect. It’s an anxiety i would love not to have but I’m not sure it’s a defect. Thinking of it like that only serves to make me feel worse about myself.
I also think the idea that we are completely selfish isn’t great. Again, whilst being selfless is really good, part of what got me to being so unhappy I wanted to drink was never meeting my own needs. How can the two match up?
I find it hard to marry up the science from the likes of Annie Grace with the stuff in AA. Any tips?
And finally, I get a bit concerned about how people conduct themselves and I can feel a bit uncomfortable with people from AA. It sometimes feels like they have ulterior (sexual / romantic) motives. Is this just me??
I’m trying to find things that work, and I feel AA has some good parts, but the more I get into it, the more concerned I become. I’ll be honest, I don’t want to live my life going to meetings and being in the AA rooms all the time. I want to live a normal life where booze doesn’t really factor. Not where I am trying to educate others and talk about my experience daily. Perhaps that’s selfish, I don’t know.
I am reading it currently. A lot of the book is good. Perhaps it’s the way it comes across from people interpreting it. Even on here I just read what I would call some ultra judgmental comments to a lady having trouble in her marriage. I don’t think the emphasis on self judgment (you need to look at why you’re to blame etc) is always particularly helpful. I believe in self reflection and trying to improve and see our faults. Maybe it’s just the use of the world blame I don’t really like.
No one says you have to do the steps first thing. No one says you have to do the steps. If you get something from the meetings, just go and enjoy the meetings.
I never was going to go to AA. I went
I never was going to get a sponsor…I got one
I never was going to do the steps…I did
However, I know people with some seriously long sobriety that never did the steps.
Thanks. I think perhaps I have trouble with the label of defect. Maybe that’s just me, I just don’t find it helpful. That said I do have a lot of fears which I wish to change - I would love to be less worried about the future and trying to control it so I believe in a way we are on the same wavelength. But if I label that a defect I’ll dislike myself more which isn’t helpful for me. I hope that makes sense?
Interested in thoughts on the other comments I made though.
Don’t get me wrong I can see how AA can be helpful and there are some good bits. I just can’t see part of the fellowship and tying that up with my identity as a way of life for me - which for many it seems to be, and I feel pressure around that. I sometimes feel like I am not able to disagree or have my own opinion in AA and everything has to be wonderful and grateful and if not it’s all our fault…
Now this may not be the book, but surely you gotta admit, meetings can be like that!
I think your misunderstanding or misinterpreted the message,
Not everyday Is gonna be cheery and happy go lucky people in AA know that, but you being wasted isn’t gonna fix it it will only make it worse. It’s not always your fault when things are shit, but what part did you take in things going to shit?? Sometimes that is a tough question to ask.
As far as Character defects we all have them sober drunk alcoholic drug addict normie whatever. None of us are perfect human beings as much as we want to say we are. Character defects are truly taking a look in at ourself. And seeing what are flaws are and how we can improve them. You might think of it as harsh criticism when truly it’s growth
Btw I’m not an AA person I never did the steps i read the book out of curiosity and listened to step study’s to understand
While I was out using and when I first got clean nothing was my fault. I was created by all the terrible things that happened to me because everyone else was to blame. It wasn’t until my head got clearer that I was able to see my part in how my life played out. The choices I made, the ways I reacted. My entire life really was a reaction. I learned through working the steps how to act instead of react. If you don’t like the word defect change it to something else. It’s not the word as much as the inner change that happens. I think you will find that the more you understand yourself the more real compassionate you will be towards yourself and your past.
Again, while out there using I was a completely selfish person. Everything revolves around me and my wants. Everyone else including my kids suffered because of me. In the program of recovery we say it is a selfish program not because we matter more than anyone else. It’s said because our recovery is so freaking important that it has to come first. For me as a newcomer I had to look at everything through the lens of recovery. I had to train my mind to know that this is good behavior or thoughts and that is bad because it can lead me back to that pit I lived in. As a mother I had to learn how to take care of me and in that process I learned how to take care of others. It’s a real process that relies on one being “selfish” or dedicated to learning how to live without that crutch in order to be that better person for everyone else.
Nope. It’s not just you. We all may be there for recovery but we are all at different stages of growth. Remember that the meetings are filled with people. People who still have problems and issues. You are going to find this happening anywhere you go. Work, school, camping, shopping…some folk just like crowds for hook ups. It’s up to you to spy them out and decide if you want them closely involved in your recovery. That said, keep looking. There are folk there solely for recovery, helping others and living a healthy life. Keep those folk close.
Recovery programs aren’t for everyone but everyone can learn from it if they just listen, stop looking for differences and search out the parts that resonate with them.
I love my local AA but don’t have a sponsor nor have I officially worked the steps. It wasn’t the right time for me to do so. I had a therapist instead and worked on mindful self compassion. Lots of AA people don’t have a sponsor or work the steps. The fellowship is what works for me right now. I am open to working the steps down the road.
I would try out some other meetings. Lots of deferent flavors out there. Take what works for you to stay sober and leave the rest.
My sponsor called them ‘liabilities’ which I prefer, they are not wrong or bad necessarily, just they don’t work for you. Being meek could also be a liability, the same as being too strong. It is about balance. I personally found understanding the fear defect really freeing. I wasn’t a shitty person, I was just scared of things, that gave me more compassion for myself.
And when in the early days I worked my program a lot, these days I do a minimum that suits me and keeps me on track. You will find your own level.
And there are always some people who thoughts go to romance, just because we are human, even if it is discouraged. Keep your boundaries firm.
I think Shakespeare wrote, “A turd by any other name smells as foul”, so it’s really not about the name; it’s about the turd. What are we gonna do about that smell?
AA isn’t for everyone. It certainly isn’t for me. I had a serious drug and alcohol problem and I live a better life than ever 2 years later. Wih that being said it’s important to acknowledge that AA does help a ton of people to stay sober around the world.
Ultimately it boils down to the individual. If you feel like AA has too many elements that conflict with your worldview and beleifs then there are plenty of other ways to work on staying sober. I feel like therapy is a good start and it certainly was for me.
Sobriety in my opinion requires purpose. Goals and aspirations that are more important than the appeal of a drink are what have kept me sober.
For me the self “blaming” is actually just a way to rid myself of my victim mentality. It was empowering to give myself ownership of the problems in my life because once I owned them I could fix them. I am powerless to change other people so if others are the problem then nothing would change.
I did therapy and AA at the same time and found that although different, they meshed well with each other. No one goes into AA feeling good about themselves. No one. But if you listen to all the people who now love themselves in AA they will tell you the steps got them there.
Fear into faith. Remember this term. You state that you carry fear with you. You can overcome fear with faith. And right now that faith can be in the people who have been through the steps and now live a great life. There’s more than a few of us here.
When I first got to AA I also wanted to know how everything worked. Turns out I don’t need to know why it works. I just need to know that it does work.
When I got to AA I pretty much just wanted to die every day of my life. I was alone and lonely. Full of all of the defects. Now my life is complete and amazing beyond my wildest dreams. But that didn’t happen overnight. I had to let my guard down, ask for help, and honestly work the steps.
That’s a really helpful insight, thank you. Understanding the fear rather than it being a ‘character defect’ is probably a better way for me to look at it. Fear into faith is also a good suggestion, but not always that easy…
I think my journey is different to many. I’ve spent a year looking at myself and seeing how I played a part in how things went to shit so perhaps I have already done some of that step. I don’t really want to beat myself up all over it again really is where I’m at - I am doing things to try and change (like simply not drinking and having therapy). One of my worst character defects is the resentment I have at myself which is ironic.
I do see people in AA saying they have good lives. I guess sometimes I wonder how real that is. If it were, would they be on meetings all the time? I don’t know. I know it’s a different mentality, but for me I don’t want being ‘in recovery’ to define me like it seems to so many people in AA. That’s just my perspective. I’m not saying people in AA are wrong or anything, and I’m glad they live happy lives now, I just don’t buy into all of it. I hope that will not make me a failure or judged.
How do people feel about the science v AA though? I have to say I think This Naked Mind is powerful and I’m intrigued to hear how people who don’t get on with AA have sought a better life.
I go to two or three AA meetings a week and we are all friends. I really enjoy them. As for the disease versus alcohol is an addictive substance (Annie Grace) model, I think both are true and both have helped me tremendously. Both helped me get and stay sober. The outcome is the same. Personally, I think I drank myself into alcoholism and I’m not going back. It is progressive. I love being alcohol free. Gratitude and staying in the present moment has been a gift, a wonderful way to live.
Hey there, I am so glad you have come out with all these amazing questions.
Curiosity is such a beautiful principle to have in recovery. I think that it’s also awesome that instead of saying " AA isn’t for me" you are saying " Am I understanding this right or am I misinterpreting this?" I know that when I came into the room at the beginning of my recovery I misunderstood quite a bit about the steps and honestly I learn more about them as the years go by.
I dont have time to read through everyone’s responses to you so please forgive me if I repeat what others have said…
This was also me when I came into recovery, I still struggle with the perfectionism part. Instead of calling mine “defects of character” I call them " shitty character traits" because that’s exactly what they are. I am not defective, I just have some crappy traits that I would rather not act on. Step Four is not just a step where we tear ourselves apart and look at all the wrong we have done in our lives. It is a place we get honest with ourselves, and we write down the dark parts of ourselves and the parts that shine. This step isn’t done so that we feel bad, it’s actually done so that we can hopefully stop repeating mistakes that lead us to make poor life choices, and so that we can see all of the good we hold as a human.
Fear is at the core of my disease and it is why I was in active addiction for 33 years. I suffered with a fear of abandonment, fear of judgment, fear of failure, fear of success, fear of not being enough, fear of being too much, fear of… I am sure you get the picture. All of my fears brought up emotions in me that I didn’t know how to handle, I had no coping skills so I used.
Maybe not, there are some people who are still quite sick in these programs, it happens to me too. I don’t base my opinion of the program on an individual’s behavior though, principles before personalities.
Science and spirituality are best friends, keep coming back.
I think fear can be interpreted in many ways. Rational fear, bears, roller coasters, the ocean… but the fear that is in the realm of character is irrational fear, fear of not being good enough, fear of saying the wrong thing, fear of messing up.
There is also healthy fear, motivating fear. For me it’s fear of relapse, fear of consequences. That keeps me motivated.
Acceptance is a big part of the process as well. Not just acceptance of others but accepting yourself, not all character defects are curable, but the important thing is the recognition of those defects. One for me is trying to control outcomes, I want things done a specific way and it’s hard for me to let go when someone else is doing it differently. As long as I recognize it I have an opportunity to learn and communicate. Accepting you won’t get apologies you feel you deserve, accepting people won’t accept your apologies etc. We’ve all messed up in one way or another, it is how you move forward. The 4th step is far from a pity party, it was one of the most helpful steps for in realizing my role in conflict and resentments. I would stick around a while and keep listening, I have had so many great meetings!
AA was way before science and its worked for thousands of people .
If you feel uncomfortable with people from AA maybe try another program , i take it your have a long experience with AA and have been sober awhile to have these views . AA is for people who want it not borrow it and then cast it aside desire and effort , over the years people have tried to over think AA doctrine its simple go to meetings get a sponsor work the program new mindset its easy keep on trucking
This was really helpful, thank you. As is the post after from Dylan regarding acceptance.
I share many of the fears you outlined. I wonder how AA has helped you - what are the coping skills you’ve learnt?
I do sometimes find the meetings insightful and uplifting. One of my issues though is the pressure to go to them. Someone said above in comment to my post about being on meetings all the time and is that a negative. I think being made to feel like you have to go all the time at the expense of other interests and people is. It leads to a cult like nature and over reliance on meetings. By all means go if that’s what you need, but don’t make me feel guilty if I don’t and see my family instead, or play football and do health hobbies in an evening which help my mental health as much as listening and hearing more about alcohol does.
Your insights have been helpful. I do think there are some helpful parts of AA, but on my own journey, I am concerned that the seeming promotion of negative self-image and reliance on others is something I need to get away from. I’ll try and use some of the tools as mentioned and take what works, and not what I find toxic.
It is a simple program, you don’t live by your own will and try your best to live by the good values, morals, and principles you possess. The program only becomes complicated when people start to complicate it.
to use the phone to reach out and talk about my problems, I do not need to suffer alone
meditation, learning to look within me instead of outside of myself for happiness
selflessness, to give my time away to other people in recovery. Yes, this is a great coping skill for when I am stuck in obsessive thoughts, or if I would ever slip back into self-pity.
So where in therapy I learn coping skills in NA ( Narcotics Anonymous) I learn how to live which of course includes coping skills. I learn how to be a decent human being so that I create fewer situations where I will need coping skills to make it through.
I didnt do 90 meetings in 90 days, it didn’t work for me. I do go to lots of meetings, by choice, because they make me feel amazing. I don’t go to clubs or out to bars anymore, i go for dinner and to a meeting that’s my social life and it’s fun to meet new people in recovery.
