Spiritual experience appendix II

On page 9 of the big book of alcoholics anonymous, a once alcoholic stood at the end of the bar as Bill Wilson slid a drink his way, trying to encourage him to drink and Ebby Thatcher declined and made a statement that seems to be overlooked in the recovery world. “I’ve got religion”… The whole program of alcoholics anonymous developed after this meeting with Ebby Thatcher, as he explained to Bill what he’d done to get sober. Shortly after, they speak about a “spiritual experience”. If you read in the appendix II, the first two editions of the book states that it was vital for permanent recovery. Let me just say, that for a book that mentions God 134 times in the first 164 pages, you’d think that people would be having these spiritual experiences more often, but, negative… In fact, I’ve never really heard of anyone really speak about having a specific “spiritual experience” that changed the course of their recovery, or got them sober. My observation is that there is a heavy emphasis on the steps and principals, but the one who has all power, gets pushed to the side and maybe mentioned here and there between a few f-bombs while drinking some bad coffee.

I’m going to go ahead and share my take on this from a biblical view and I hope to give some insight to why the infamous “spiritual experience” that seems to be so elusive, isn’t so elusive after some light gets shed on the subject.

First of all Ebby Thatcher was part of the Oxford group. The Oxford group has a specific God, not a god of your own understanding, not a doorknob. The triune God. God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Bible says that there is only one God:

Isaiah 44:6 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Unfortunately, having your own conception of god is very dangerous. Not just dangerous, but the god you have made up is contrary to the only one who can save you. It is just that… A made up god… So, when everyone is reading through this book and doesn’t have a biblical grasp of who the God of the Bible is, it is a false relationship with your creator. Oh man, and the minute you bring up Jesus Christ in AA, people go full potato. But, it is very clearly stated in the Bible that no one can have ANY access to God without first believing in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

John 14:6 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The reality is, is that AA has gotten away from the foundation of the program… Though, yes, it is a program of action, it actually outlines a path of repentance. From doing wrong to moving in the opposite direction.

GOD is the only source of power, but if someone doesn’t know what Christ has done for them, then access to the Father is cut off.

The spiritual malady that the book talks about is really a war against sin. It is a cancer of the soul and left untreated it is eternally terminal… God looks at our sin as filth and God doesn’t hear any prayers of those who haven’t accepted Christ as their Savior.

Isaiah 59:2 (KJV) But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

People back in Ebby Thatchers day weren’t just getting sober, they were getting saved. Back then, you were the outcast if you didn’t believe in Jesus Christ. It was a different generation. As our culture here in America progressed into more and more sin, our view of God has unfortunately strayed from the God of the Bible. Instead of people coming to Christ for deliverance from alcoholism, people are putting the steps and principals as the foundation. It’s like having a train with no engine… There is no power and it just becomes legalism… But once someone truly comes to faith in Christ they are born again.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 (KJV) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

John 3:5 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

If you want to know anything else on the subject, please let me know. I’d be more than happy to talk to you and show you what the Bible says about it and I’d be more than happy to show you the Bible in the big book.

“But for the grace of God there go I”…

I’d been to 6 rehabs and couldn’t get sober. Nothing worked for me, not until I fully surrendered to Christ as Lord and Savior. I experienced the grace of God and he took away my desire to drink and get loaded and he gave me new desires. I wish the same for everyone in the program, because that’s how it used to be…

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Ahh, you know what’s dangerous, is cherry picking parts of the big book, and Bible, to spread your opinion as fact. The primary purpose of AA is stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety. God worked for Bill, but he understood that it wouldn’t work for others. Your post basically excludes everyone who doesn’t have a Christian conception of God. How’s that helping others? How did you achieve the primary purpose telling people the way they practice is AA is wrong?

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hello and welcome, wow what a first post, your gonna fit in great. :thinking::joy:

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Welcome to TS :pray:t2:
You will find what works for some doesnt allways work for others.
Im glad you found your way :heart: I have found a simular. All though not in words exactly. Anyways, it works :pray:t2: Thank god for that

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I’ve never been to a 12 step program thankfully!! But I will say proudly, that as I grew in my faith with Christ and truely wanted to not have that urge to drink anymore, he took it away from me!! I recieved the gift of Holy Spirit and after that night, everything changed. Like God had rewired my brain. So thankful to my God for opening my eyes. I’m glad others who don’t believe in the God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are getting sober and there are different ways for everyone… But this is my experience with him and I am so grateful everyday for my chains being broken and my eyes are open!!

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(I’m still chuckling at your response, you’re so quick witted!)

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I didn’t believe in God for 48 years until one day I found myself praying in a church for the strength not to drink for one day, I also prayed for courage, acceptance and forgiveness. When I opened my eyes the first person I saw was the only woman in a town of 7000 that went to AA, I walked out that church with her the weight of a sack of bricks removed from my back and the floor was like walking on clouds, 3 days later I found myself at my first AA meeting and drinking or smoking did not enter my head for 8 days. I see signs everyday guiding me to stay sober, I don’t always listen to them but I’m forever reminded that hope is not lost.

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Well it was an entrance to say the least. :joy:

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This is a sobriety forum not a religious forum. I think your post is better suited for a different place. Frankly, I think your post is offensive to those that are not religious but still found their way through the steps of AA and remain sober. I think I’ll stick to their advice and leave religion out of it. We all know that discussions on religion and politics just lead to arguments.

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God is the total of all Creation, which means that God lives in us all as we are, in nature, in animals. Whether you call it God, Allah or whatever, I think it really doesn’t matter. You don’t even have to believe in God.

I myself prefer to refer to God as Spirit or Higher Power. I was raised as a Christian, but I don’t believe in God the same way as Christians do. Mostly because of people such as yourself.

Just do whatever works for you. God will love you just the same. Even if you’re an atheist.

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In fact, I’ve never really heard of anyone really speak about having a specific “spiritual experience” that changed the course of their recovery

Well, I have shared this in other places, let me share it with you. After 35 years of drinking, and 18 years after my first AA meeting, I had an out of body experience during which time slowed to a stop. I heard a voice “It’s going to be alright. I’ll be able to stop drinking now.” Then time resumed its normal speed, I went from observing myself from above back to experiencing my body normally. The cop walked up to the window of the car and started my last arrest.

On the foundation of that spiritual experience I have stayed sober over 15 years. And I’m not a unicorn and I believe the Bible is a collection of man made stories without divine inspiration.

If the J man and the sky daddy works for you, then more power to you for finding your path. But don’t fucking tell me what road I must walk nor how to walk it.

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Not sure how to quote other people’s replies yet…
Listen, I understand that people get sober through AA and that’s great. I’m strictly speaking about the “spiritual experience”, that’s all. Just because what I said is offensive, doesn’t make it any less true. I have a lot of friends in program, I try to stay involved with H&I when Coronavirus hasn’t got everyone locked down and I do catch a lot of flack from people in program for the views that I do have because I know that they don’t line up with most of AA’ers… But there is a reality that lies past this life, and if I offend some now for the sake of the truth, so be it.

The beautiful story of a holy God and His great love for a fallen people shines through the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The holiness of God can be hard to grasp, because we ourselves are not holy. Striving to understand the holiness of God will also give us a sobering perception of self, our sin and our desperate need for a savior. The more we understand the depth of His great holiness and His character, the more we understand the futility of our finite lives. We should have a picture painted in our minds of a fallen, sinful world surrounded by a God in need of absolutely nothing. Perfect, Holy & Just.

We see the result of sin in the fall of man in Gen 3. Looking at the Old Testament and seeing the commands of God, we see our desperate need for a savior. Taking the 10 commandments and holding ourselves accountable to the law, we find ourselves in violation. We are liars, thiefs, cheats, adulterers… Etc. We ALL stand guilty before a holy God on judgement day.

  • Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”
  • Romans 3:10 “ As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one”
  • Psalm 14:3 “They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one”

We are all sinners in need of a savior, yet, we cannot save ourselves… Scripture also says, “For the wages of sin is death.” We earn death as one earns a paycheck. Our sin is looked at by God as being filthy, dirty, unclean and unholy… The most sober view of ourselves we could have towards God is that we are insignificant specs of dust, mites, absolutely nothing in comparison to the infinite/all powerful, perfect God. There lies our problem… Therefore separation from God as a result of sin has to be understood and the punishment for sin is hell.

  • Isaiah 59 “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear”

There is hope.

  • Romans 5:8 “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”

  • John 3:16 - 17 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

The question I frequently ask myself is why….? Why would a holy God care for such insignificant beings as us? The scripture says that, “All things are created for Him by Him.” Revelation 4:11 says, “Everything was created for thy pleasure.” The love and the character of God is shown by Him sending His Son to this fallen, sinful world. Christ didn’t just hang on a cross. Christ walked a perfect life in the will of God and was without sin. To think that He loved the Lord His God with all his heart, soul and might. 33 years of perfection in the will of God is an amazing thing to think about. As John the Baptist made it known, “Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world” John 1:9. For there to be salvation of man, there had to be a perfect sacrifice of a man. Christ has fulfilled that. Also, to know what God thinks about sin and His hatred for it, yet He sent His son to this defiled world to bear our sin and take the punishment for us. So we do not have to stand in judgement. The wrath of God was taken out on His own Son at Calvary and it pleased the Father to do so. When the wrath of God was satisfied, Christ said, “It is finished” and He gave up the ghost. What was finished? God had made a way for us to be reconciled to himself through the finished work of Jesus Christ by bearing our sins. He had taken the punishment from His own Father for us. Christ was buried and God the Father raised Him up 3 days after His death, demonstrating His power and victory over death.

How are we saved?

Ephesians 2:8-9
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God not of works, lest any man should boast”

Romans 10:9
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”

We are only saved by the grace of God THROUGH the finished work of Jesus Christ. That we BELIEVE that Jesus Christ has died for our sin, was buried and rose again on the 3rd day, according to the scriptures.

2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

Repentance is the evidence of true faith, granted by God. We cannot repent of our sins without the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 11:28-30, “ Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

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just a reminder everyone - there is a mute function available

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That’s a pro tip, thank you!

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The topic is Spiritual Experience, so with that said, you have free will to click on whatever you would like in this Sober Forum

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Why would I want to mute this? This is just getting good.

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tenor (1)

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Ahmen, next topic please

Two years ago tonight, a spiritual experience saved my life - as I was about to kill myself. A very clear voice said, WAIT. JUST WAIT

So I waited…not even knowing why.

…and over the next few days, events unfolded in such a way that I found myself in a dark, rainy parking lot of a cancelled AA meeting - along with a handful of people who walked up and stood there in the cold rain - because they didn’t want to let a newcomer down.

I needed no other evidence of a higher power.

I continue to find my higher power in the people in the rooms, in the laughter of my children, in the stories of those who are keeping this disease at bay, in the friends I have made on these boards. I find my higher power in kindness, connection, nature, and music - and the knowledge that goodness is everywhere if we are open to seeing it.

I find my higher power in the knowledge that I don’t have to fight anymore…with people whose ideas are not the same as mine…with those who tap my insecurities…with the disease who tells me that I am not an alcoholic…always having to have the last word on why I AM RIGHT.

The only requirement for AA is a desire to stop drinking - and thank God for that. It is all I had when I got there…and now, two years later, I know that I am never alone, thanks to the people who accepted me as I am and to my higher power who shows himself in the most curious of ways.

Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right

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