Likewise CBT like @Rob_L name dropped. I’ve still got tools in my box from that. It’s good stuff.
SMART was similar to it as I recall, but CBT may be more widely available and had both individual and group flavors around here.
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I did CBT when I was in outpatient. It was pretty much everything I had already learned through multiple inpatient rehabs, but it would be good for someone who hasn’t been to multiple inpatient rehabs lol
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Lol, no…i didnt take it that way
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But that’s just it. I think the “addictive personality” is what makes alcoholism a disease. I am genetically predisposed to react differently to alcohol than a “normal person” just like a diabetic reacts differently to sugar than a “normal person”. There are lots of diseases that are based on genetics and that we will never be cured of…we will just learn to control.
Just my personal 2 cents.
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These are great points. I wanted to make the distinction that alcohol itself is the problem. Naked Mind and others take that stance but didn’t adequately explain why I kept coming back. It defied logic. Somehow I kept using bad logic to keep relapsing. And I’m otherwise very logical.
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Yes and no… Daily drinkers are physically addicted. It’s no surprise what keeps that going… Awful consequences when you stop.
The binge drinker more voluntarily comes back, which I think is even less logical.
Also I’m making the distinction from someone that drinks to mask pain, that sort of thing. My drinking never depended on my mood.
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Have you ever considered how people become daily drinkers? It takes years to become physically dependant to the point of severe withdrawal and even then it takes only a week to detox. After a detox most relapse.
In your mind, what is the purpose of trying fabricate these distinctions?
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Figuring out how to get myself to stop when all the books and podcasts weren’t doing it.
People become daily drinkers either habitually (small amounts daily then larger) or by using alcohol as hair of the dog for hangovers in a recurring cycle. Right?
I mean, you can classify drinkers all you want according to why they make the choice to drink. I don’t see the point. If one has entered the zone of having a problem/alcoholism/daily drink/binge drink/whatever, they’ve stopped regulating their behaviour around alcohol properly. That’s the “disease”. The binge drinker voluntarily comes back, but so does the daily drinker suffering withdrawals, and the person who’s drowning in pain and wants an out. Sure, each have their own “flavour” as to how their brain gets to that state, and I’m not saying their thought process is identical, but each of them has the same behavioural dysregulation that needs to be addressed. The tried-and-true recovery principles we see everywhere, they generally address the dysregulation itself, not the “why”, and so they tend to work regardless of the cause of the desire to drink. This is why I think making distinctions of types of alcoholic has limited usefulness in a recovery context.
Believe me, I came up with all sorts of scientific interpretations of my situation and thought it would help. It was interesting, but if it made any difference to my recovery, I’m not aware of it. I do know, however, that it gave me tons of fuel to rationalize rejecting evidenced recovery strategies that I didn’t want to do.
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This, exactly this.
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Personally, I started as a weekly binge drinker and gradually added a day a week, but it was exercise first with me, then other drugs, then alcohol. Different people in different ways though. Addiction has the same driving force regardless, dopamine.
I think this is why your topic resonates with me so much. For years I tried to work out why I just ‘couldn’t stop’. It didn’t make sense to me because I could be sober for months, hating alcohol, but still return.
It turns out none of it mattered, it was all a distraction from doing the things which actually helped me to not only stay sober, but genuinely enjoy my life sober.
Ifs has left you some really wise words above.
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I’d also like to point out that we often discuss neurotransmitters in a highly simplified way, and it’s easy for anyone to draw faulty conclusions. Dopamine plays a pivotal role in addiction, yes, and serotonin plays important roles in mood regulation, and can be affected by social situations, yes. There’s some important things to note here, though.
- It matters a ton where the increased neurotransmitter levels are. You can have lowered dopamine levels in one area, while another receptor type is getting absolutely hammered with it, and the overall level in your brain can be higher or lower than normal while this is going on.
Here’s an example. In the nucleus accumbens, increased dopamine activity is associated with addictive behaviour, pleasure, etc. In the prefrontal cortex, however, it’s associated with increased executive function, something we don’t notice with alcohol consumption. Alcohol produces a sizeable effect in the former, whereas Wellbutrin is most effective in the latter. They both affect dopamine, but a LOT differently. - More/less stimulation of a receptor does not necessarily mean more/less effect. It can, but often the effect changes entirely. Serotonin can make us feel good, feel like we’re provided for and aren’t lacking any basic needs. Increase it, and maybe that “feel good” increases too, and maybe your anxiety drops further. But it can also change entirely. More serotonin can also make you agitated or foggy and confused. It’s just more complicated than the easy facts that we like to pass around.
Recovery works in groups because of accountability, social support, and sharing of what works. If it was serotonin, I could just ask my doctor to go on SSRIs, SNRIs, tricyclics, MAOIs, or go out and find some MDMA.
So as you can see, while we can say something like “alcohol releases dopamine, which makes us feel good”, and that’s true, it’s not a good building block to make conclusions about how the brain works. This is why the science is done by, and firm conclusions drawn by, the people who are experienced in the field. Of course we can come up with ideas or theories, but those aren’t the same as scientifically established explanations.
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And shows just how cunning our alcoholic brain is in trying to rationalize our drinking. Trying to keep us tied to the post.
I think we are all logical, intelligent people.
I spent 2 years knowingly drinking myself deeper into the pit. Knowing that one day I would loose everything I loved!
Yet I still did it!
Knowing that one day my wife would “call time!”
Why would a logical, intelligent person do such a thing?
Because my addict brain wouldn’t let me think clearly enough to get a grip!
I don’t need a doctorate to know I am an alcoholic.
But I needed something more than my rational logical brain to get sober.
That’s why it took me 2 years, I was trying to do it by myself.
Example: I read a book about giving up smoking 20 years ago. In the introduction, the author said that they would not be telling us to actually stop, but just trying to change out minds to think about smoking differently.
I still vape today! I know first hand what smoking can do to you. But my brain keeps telling me I like it. It’s obviously something that will be addressed soon. The sooner the better for my wife 
Just lately, I have seemed to have reached a fork, as someone else has said. Do I continue on the road I’m on, just occasionally going to AA but just not drinking,
meditation when I feel like it,
deep breaths when I need to centre myself
Occasionally doing a bit of cross trainer.
Comparing how my life has changed, and the hard work I’ve put in.
Or do I , when I think the universe, is trying to, maybe, tell me, to move on in my recovery, try something else?
Maybe actually work the steps that have worked for thousands of people.
Nothing is going to tie me to the chair. I can come and go as I please. But how do I know what could happen if I don’t actually try it.
I don’t. Simple.
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I find it amazing how close our thinking patterns are at the moment, it must be a six month thing 
I could have written your post myself, even the bit about Allen Carr.
My perspective is that putting forward the arguments for AA when it’s falling on deaf ears is an unfortunately pointless exercise, that doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying but it’s never going to work (at that time) the argument has to be put forward when the other person is ready. My recent thinking has made me realise that working the steps is a bit like deciding to stop drinking. Nothings going to happen until you’re ready. No one stops drinking because they are told to, they do it because they are truly ready, and no one will go to AA because others tell them to no matter how strong the argument or facts are. I think AA is amazing, but I’ve known that all along, however no one would have convinced me six months ago it was for me because l wasn’t ready to hear that, now with a bit of time under my belt it’s starting to become appealing. I’m ready for it, not because I have a desire to stop drinking, that’s already ticked off the list but because I want to continue growing, the things I’ve been doing are working to stop me drinking but are they “enough” for continued growth?
The for and against argument frustrates me, one because people are narrow minded but that’s people (I guess I was too) and two because I see great people using their precious energy flogging a dead horse.
Some people will be ready at the beginning of their journey, some a bit further along with a bit of growth under their belts (perhaps for slightly different reasons) and some never, either because they are going to drink again or because they’ve truly found something else that works for them.
None of that is aimed at you of course, just my thoughts in general.
I see a lot of similar patterns in our thoughts lately, it’s like we are sitting in the same chair sometimes, it’s actually nice to know I’m not unique not like the old me who thought “I was different”
Here’s to us both finding what the right next step is
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AA teaches that all we can do is tell our story. I have to remind myself of that. If the other person doesnt want to hear it, then there isnt much more you can do. For me, I get “emotional” when that program is spoken about in a negative manner. Why? Because it has saved my life and countless others. I tried SMART, do I have opinions on it?..Ofcourse! In all honesty, those are opinions based on my issues with its approach. I would hate to spout off about it and prevent someone from trying it
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I did sound a bit harsh when I read that back!
I totally agree with you,I think AA is wonderful, I’d never say otherwise, I’ve never tried it so I have no right to and it clearly works.
I can totally understand why people get emotional and passionate about AA (or anything that saved their life) they’ve every right to.
Sharing of stories is a wonderful thing and when the other person is ready to hear, can be a lifeline.
I’d never put down anyone’s way of recovering if it’s working for them, and I’d hate to put off someone who is ready to “hear” and might just have a life changing moment
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I didnt take it as harsh…i was just adding my 2 cents
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What is interesting to me from seeing these debates go around is that the people who speak negatively about AA tend to be the people who cannot seem to stay sober for any substantial length of time themselves, or who relapse chronically. Those around this forum who have managed a year + without AA seem to have a respect and appreciation for what it does for others, even if it is not a part of their current journey.
As long as I told myself I wasn’t an alcoholic because I could go 1, 2, 3, 5, 30 days without a drink, I never was able to achieve sobriety.
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Exactly. People who have managed long sobriety without going to AA do seem to have adopted the basic principles of change, both physical and spiritual.
People who live on hope alone do seem to keep relapsing, at some point.
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Here is the beautiful thing… AA/NA teach basic life principles all packaged up for easy digestion. Don’t be an asshole, treat others how you want to be treated. Lead by example, do as I do, not as I say. Don’t preach. Mind your own business. Apologize for being an asshole. Make your life better so you can be better for others. Transparency. Accountability. HONESTY!
Guess what? These are all things that should be strived for no matter what! I’m a manager/supervisor in the restaurant business and all these principles apply there. I’m sure it’s the same for most other professions. It is definatly the same for, well, life in general.
The only AA I’ve done was in the hospital. The meetings were great! Why didn’t I continue to go? I didn’t want to stay sober that time around. This time? I have my reasons, they are legit, but they are mine and I don’t need to publiy display reasons that could become illegitimate excuses for others new to sobriety and recovery. I have ZERO dislike for AA and ZERO reasons why people shouldn’t go. Trust me, I’ve put in the work. Probably could have achieved more in less time if I would have gone the AA route.
Moral of the story? AA works! There are plenty of other programs available, plenty of ways to create your own program, but AA has sooooo much of it just ready and waiting for you.
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