The Alcohol Conundrum

Knowledge
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Umm. Hate to break it to you but since getting on an SSRI and NDRI my drinking patterns improved tremendously. In fact I even crave coffee less. Wellbutrin is often prescribed for smoking cessation (chantix) so how’s that indicated if it primarily works on executive functioning? I’m not a scientist after all.

But the indignance and hostility toward those that eschew AA make it seem all the more like a cult. I don’t believe the disease model of alcoholism because it’s still idiopathic and mostly a guess. The reasons are likely more individualized and I’m slowly discovering mine.

The serotonin thing is a little more figurative. If you have things to do and people counting on you, it seems less logical to pick up. I didn’t think that would be construed so literally.

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Just to play devils advocate…if alcohol isnt a disease, then seeking medical treatment shouldnt be necessary…right?

And on the cult aspect. I have studied cults on the collegiate level. Help me see your view point…how is AA like the group that followed Manson, Jim Jones, Halebop, Ted Bundy’s women. If its a cult, behaviorally they should be similar. There are behaviors specific to cults, what do you see in AA that is similar?

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@anon46927530
Don’t forget those folks in California that wore the weird hats and poisoned themselves to join the passing comet.

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Interesting read. Saying alcohol isn’t a disease is one I used to believe until I tried to stop and couldn’t. Physically and mentally I was addicted and am an alcoholic. I was projecting. I now know saying alcohol isn’t a disease is like saying global warming doesn’t exist. There is actual proof. Science proof. With everything you said science-based in your post, you of all should believe that.

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Jim Jones tried to recruit my Dad in the early 70’s, he told him to eff off. True story!

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So you disagree with pretty much all doctors, psychiatrists and medical professionals who call it a disease?

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Halebop…unless i am forgetting another

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Really? I bet that is an interesting story

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You are right Halebop or Heaven’s Gate if I remember correctly

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Heven’s gate…that is one i forgot

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Yeah! It’s pretty crazy. I’m pretty stoked my Dad is smart cuz I kinda like existing!!

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That was like my first introduction to what a cult is. There’s a documentary on Netflix about the one cult that was in Oregon or Washington who poisoned the drinks at a restaurant. It’s a great watch

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58

This topic reminds me so much of myself years ago.
But also something one of the counselors in my rehab said regarding someone who was being kicked out (reason unrelated). He said “the drugs haven’t broken him yet, hopefully he’ll be back” the implication being that he’ll either give up the fight and return to treatment, or die from the drugs.
I’ve taken Champix (chantix (NOT Wellbutrin)), two different SSRI’s, an SNRI, acamprosate, naltrexone and baclofen.
Baclofen I actually thought was working, it wasn’t. Taking that for two years was a huge mistake, the relapse at the end was dire and the paws from it a mindf*k.
It turns out that the best treatments for drug dependence in the long term often don’t involve taking drugs. Who would’ve thought! Other than the entire AA, NA, CA etc. Fellowships that is!

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Also, fortunately the medical community doesn’t really care what any of us think about the disease model of addiction.
Addiction is a disease by definition.

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Hey, I’m not saying you didn’t notice positives from being on meds. I’m suggesting that the mechanism you proposed for the craving-reduction effect of your meds seems weakly supported.

“Alcohol produces a sizeable effect in the former, whereas Wellbutrin is most effective in the latter”

Recall that in this sentence I’m specifically talking about increases of dopaminergic activity in specific regions of the brain. I’m not touching on any effects Wellbutrin has on other neurotransmitters, or asserting the absence of significant effects on dopamine elsewhere. As for why it’s prescribed for smoking cessation, you’d have to ask someone else. But I do know it’s not a common prescription for specifically alcohol cessation and there’s probably reasons for it. My overall point I was making is that addiction is more complicated than high/low dopamine levels, not to shoot down Wellbutrin. Naltrexone reduces cravings for alcohol, but it’s an opiod antagonist and doesn’t act on dopamine or serotonin.

Even with all we’ve discovered about addiction mechanisms like that involving DeltaFosB, there still isn’t an easy answer. If you’ve found something helps you stay sober, that’s fantastic. But if it doesn’t keep you sober, it’s not the answer. It can still help, but that doesn’t make it the answer.

I went with the literal meaning of serotonin because it wasn’t clear what the figurative meaning of serotonin would be.

The resistance you’re coming up against has to do with your lack of respect towards AA more than your disagreement with it. It’s important to a lot of people and comparing it to a cult tends to be hurtful and make people feel misunderstood. I’m sure you can find other ways of expressing yourself. Something with more clarity/precision would be enlightening (cults have many characteristics and it’s not clear which ones you mean), and certainly there are less emotionally charged terms to use.

The other factor influencing people’s reaction here, is that it’s frustrating to see someone who’s having fairly limited success staying sober, not being open to trying new things once a relapse indicates the old ones weren’t cutting it. If it’s not AA that’s fine, but surely AA is not the only escalation option left to you in recovery.

I mean, you can say this about large swaths of psychiatric and/or psychological conditions to the same extent you can say this about alcoholism. It’s tangential to the “disease or not a disease” debate anyways. It sounds like to me you actually agree that alcoholism is a disease, in that you proposed a medical state (altered dopamine response) that results in dysfunction (illogical reasoning resulting in drinking).

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I think that the biological/chemical explanation is helpful for some people (including me) who might be interested in the root cause of their problems. I have had a lot of problems but i could not ever think of any kind of environmental factor, trauma, or any kind of hardship i ever went through that could cause the downward spiral. I think for some people like me, we just have the perfect storm of certain personality traits and a biological or chemical imbalance in our brain.
One moment that stands out to me was about when it all started 10 years ago, my mom asked me “what happened? Did somebody say something (hurtful) to you?” And i was like “no… i honestly dont know why i started doing this (my addiction)”. And it seemed to bother her. It bothered me that i did not have a tangible reason for her either, until i realized it doesnt matter.
I think the biological or chemical imbalance idea is only good for contemplating the root cause, in my case. I have found it just is not constructive for me to pursue it further. I dont need brain scans to show the imbalances to obtain therapy or medication, or obtain support and validation from others. The knowledge that i dont really know what exactly is wrong with me other than probably a biological or chemical imbalance doesnt hinder me anymore once i realized that my energy is better spent actually working on recovery.

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Sorry this is a bit of a long post. The TLDR is I believe it’s a disease. Here’s my source link and anecdotal evidence.

I consider myself open-minded, and I believe that there are many ways to kick addiction. However, if it weren’t considered a disease – and please someone with better knowledge than me about this correct me if I’m wrong – why’s it listed in the ICD-10?

https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/terminology/definition1/en/

And if I understand the process correctly, it’s just a matter of time before it’s listed in the DSM? I’m a sucker for scientific papers, so if anyone has some links to scientific studies refuting the WHO’s determination, I’m interested.

To take this a little further, it’s my understanding that those with bipolar condition understand they need to take their medication. They know inherently what it does and why they need it, yet many times a bipolar person will find a reason to stop taking meds. Again, please set me straight if I’m wrong here.

I messed with trying to figure out the how’s and why’s of my addiction for many, many years. Like @Eke said earlier, knowing all that didn’t stop me. The more I knew, the more often I slipped because I couldn’t make sense of it.

“You can’t make sense out of nonsense.”

After I heard this phrase one day (something completely unrelated) I looked back at my time pre-sobriety trying to come up with a logical explanation to my addiction, and there it was.

There was no logical explanation. It’s like I know ice cream goes in the freezer. I see people put it there. I’ve put it there myself. Everyone I know puts ice cream in the fridge. Yet, everytime, I open the oven and wonder where the ice cream is.

My needing a reason for everything, and for everything to be logical and in order was just me trying to run shit. I know this because this need for logic and order stood in direct conflict with my addiction, a horrifically disordered and chaotic condition I had no answer to.

It was me wanting to do this by myself because I was scared shitless, ashamed of what I was doing, and angry that I got stuck with cleaning up this mess. Part of me also liked my addiction… it was the consequences that really sucked.

6 years later, I still have no fucking clue why I self-medicated. Genetics? It was first come, first serve for dysfunctional behavior patterns? I had an amygdala the size of an SUV and a non-existent prefrontal cortex? ¯_(ツ)_/¯

To get sober, I said, fuck it. He’s sober and she’s sober and they’re sober. I’ma ask what they did, then keep my head down and do that.

My addiction isn’t an A + B = C condition. It’s a fucking 500 lb. hairball that I had to treat by unraveling it one strand at a time with tweezers. I’m still not done, probably never will be, and I still need help with it.

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I was at a coaching session yesterday for work and a few people were talking about the need for acceptance. I pulled out the serenity prayer (learned here) and everyone was like, yes oh my god that’s just spot on! Nothing to do with drinking, just a good way to approach a stressful situation.

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That’s great that the SSRI (don’t know what NDRI is? Assume similar!) is helping. Interesting, as you said earlier that your drinking isn’t related to your mood… Maybe it is a bit? I know that after about 6 months sober my depression came out and hit me like a sack of shit. I have been working on dealing with it rather than drinking it away. SSRIs have helped but I’m waiting on some CBT too.

I don’t do AA and, I think, like you I don’t identify as an alcoholic as I wasn’t a daily drinker and didn’t experience withdrawal symptoms. In the end understanding why I drink is helpful to a point, but what really matters is what I’m going to do about it.

I think the hostility you are getting is because you keep describing AA as cult like :see_no_evil:

Honestly, the AA/not, alcoholic or not conversation has been done here so many times. Search and read - you will see it pretty much always ends the same way. What’s worked for me is to look for similarities between myself and others here, understand what’s worked for them and take what I can use. I have been surprised with how many similarities I found, even with people who on the face of it have very different lives/problems/attitudes.

If sobriety is what you’re after, I hope you can look past the differences and find this place as helpful as I have :heart:

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Baclofen was (is?) certainly promoted as a miracle cure and it probably fit that description for me for 6 months or so.
As with many drugs though, its positive effects were temporary. I relapsed whilst taking it. The rest is a long story!