But when taking PMO triggers into account, I still believe people should be allowed to dress however they want. BUT I also believe that dressing the way you want doesn’t mean that you should post topless pics on a forum with recovering PMO addicts. I don’t go around sharing triggers for alcoholics or narcotics. I’d be criticized big time, but apparently PMO addicts still seem to be unequal as there often IS a discussion when a topless pic gets flagged.
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Taking someone else’s inventory no matter how noble my intentions is usually an indication that I am obsessing about a person or a place or a thing. It’s the same broken thinking that had me obsessed with porn.
Taking up a crusade against porn or perceived impropriety might keep me abstinent for a time but it certainly is not a gateway to happiness for me. It’s my brain trying to find a solution to a problem that it has also created.
I have to surrender to the things that I cannot change. Society and culture and style are things that are beyond me to change. Other people’s behavior is something I can burn myself up with resentment over… I’m not God and the world wouldn’t be better if it were constructed to suit my ideal. It took getting into Al-Anon for me to truly see how I substitute one obsession for another.
But if I am focused on doing the will of the GOMU I might just have the power to help someone follow some simple steps to recovery. I might be able to make a change there. If an alcoholic can get dry with the amount of advertising there is out there then a sex addict can recover no matter the season or the attire of women on the street.
This is something that you turn over to God and then get your focus back on your recovery and on being useful to a fellow in program.
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As long as it doesn’t affect anyone, including ourselves, we can think and wonder whatever we want to think and wonder.
But will offer a reason why I want to know.
For most of my life, I held the belief that when women dressed a certain way, that they just wanted to have a bunch of sex. I now don’t believe that is true. But it took me a long time to finally let go of that paradigm. I would like to understand the real reason. But if it’s too personal, I won’t push it
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Absolutely correct. I completely agree with you.
Same reason as yours
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Hey Mitch,
I know I can’t change anything. But I can still have an opinion. And I don’t feel it’s wrong or threatening to my recovery to have one.
In fact, not having an opinion, was actually counterproductive to my recovery. For the root of it was this toxic shame telling me that I’m this horrible, worthless, bad person, and if anyone finds out who I really am, then I won’t get the love that I want, I won’t get my needs met, and I won’t have a problem free life.
The problem is, it doesn’t work. I have to stop running from conflict and trying to avoid contention with others for the sake of trying to get everyone to like me because I don’t like myself.
Did I overcompensate with my words on this thread? Did I cross the line? Probably so.
But the worse thing for me is to not say anything at all; to keep my mouth shut; don’t rock the boat. It’s what I’ve been doing all along. It’s like I’m not really alive. That kind of thinking led me straight back to my toxic shame which has been the root of my sexual acting out.
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Just stir the pot a bit more… This applies to all sexes, btw!
“I can dress whatever I want, as long as…”
This is freedom within socio-cultural norms. Those norms are learnt at home, in communities and in society. We learn how to dress for school, work, grandma’s funeral, weather-wise, shopping centres etc. There’s not a specific person who creates those norms for others, obviously it’s a complex fabric. There are always those who rebel, comply, feel uncomfortable and judge others. Those norms give people liberties but also responsibilities towards others. That’s why we can expect people to show up in certain events dresses appropriately… or not naked.
“I can dress whatever I want.”
If we take this sentence literally, it strippes off all socio-cultural norms of what is acceptible. 100% individual freedom, no accountability because “it’s not any of your business!” Perhaps most people would still appear dressed sensibly. What about those, who don’t have such sense? If there’s no accountability, suspectable people can come to kids playgrounds wearing nothing. A nurse coming to work in a swimsuit. The president speaking topless.
I know these examples sounds far fetched. It is because we still have norms but they are deteriorating and changing. I find it problematic if we take away the ability to challenge peoples’ attires. I do not trust human race enough to allow a total freedom with no accountability.
There’s a clear distinction between those two sentences I mentioned earlier. “As long as…” implies there’s a norm somewhere. Yet, it’s another matter who are the people who decide and enforce those norms.
I would think Laura @littlemisschatterbox, that in your household it’s been you for your kids, right? So it’s …as long as Mom approves 
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If you were sharing your opinion on how the Celtics won the superbowl, no it would not be threatening to your recovery.
But for something that is so closely tied to my addiction I gave up the privilege to have an opinion. Because it just keeps me in the cycle of addiction. My thinking, when it comes to sex and other people’s behavior, is fucked. I have a mental block. My brain has sane thoughts and insane thoughts running parallel on the subject and it’s only a matter of time before the insane thought takes over. The house will always win because the odds are against me and my addict brain.
I understand the issues with feeling inadequate. I have them constantly. I feel worthless and backwards and I flagellate myself for it. I share my mistakes with my sponsor who helps me to sort out my shame and points out that I am human.
And I also struggle with conflict. I have struggled with keeping my mouth shut to keep the peace. But speaking out against this subject here doesn’t seem to be a step in the right direction in practicing conflict resolution. It’s an inflammatory argument with strangers on the internet. I don’t practice for the world series by playing a videogame. I do the work and a say a prayer and I accept that I will probably fail 7 out of 10 times.
I would be the way I am even if all women wore sumo suits to the beach. No moral failures in society or my upbringing forced me to turn to porn. My choices are all that I am allowed to inventory.
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I respect your opinion on this matter and I really support it. I won’t tell you to change. You got to do what works for you. I understand.
We’re all different. I embrace that. It’s why I’ve got to do what’s right for me. Thank you
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Just because it will never happen fully, society still has to have its norms and ethics to fulfill even if they’re just principles. And by being an example everyone can add to the change.
You didn’t speak against men who support women who dress sexy. If instead of promoting respect you campaign for women to dress less sexy you still objectify them, you just want them to be a hidden object.
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Because people have different understanding what is “appropriate”. It is this difference in understanding what started this whole topic, IMO, and it’s not a simple topic. Therefore it should be open for discussion on a general level.
Great work on raising your children, I sincerely admire your wisdom as a mom.
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Sex is natural. Yes.
However, I believe that my brain is wired differently than normal people. I have an abnormal reaction when it comes to selfish sex. In the same way that an alcoholic has an abnormal reaction to alcohol. There is the phenomenon on craving that comes when I allow myself to consume another person with my eyes or to push a situation to an outcome I desire. If I am at that point it’s like taking the first drink. The bottle is in my head. Then there’s the obsession in my mind that it will give me a sense of ease and comfort to act out.
I have to admit my lack of power over it and recognize that it will only reintroduce chaos into my life. It will consume me if I even start to think that my problems will be lessened if I manipulate that girl in the yoga pants to give me some validation so that I feel better about myself.
It’s a very slippery slope. And I have fallen often. I’m human and I don’t have a perfect recovery. So I certainly can’t judge how others conduct themselves and what they do with their bodies.
Selfish sex and mindful sex are different things. I can’t engage in the former without suffering spiritually. However the latter restores me and is a gesture of loving intimacy. The line is blurry. I will admit that. But everyone is given the ability to seek out their own sexual ideal.
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I actually promote both. I promote that everyone shows respect to one another and that everyone dresses modestly. Given that, would you still say that it’s still objectifying woman?
Just because it’s an utopia it can still be valid. Human rights were and still are utopia, but those who have it are pretty happy with it.
I think girls are already raised to be more sensitive towards others, be more emphatic traditionally, they have less to catch up on in this regard.
In the thread it was pretty much one-sided.
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My response will focus on this question you posed:
The comparison about being in front of a lion and not expecting to be eaten is an interesting addition to this conversation. The lion is programed to eat, and no we wouldn’t fault the lion for doing what it has been trained to do.
So why are we trying to shame women for what comes naturally and is most valued in our society?
Not sure if this is an opinion or just basic biology but we are sexual beings. Our sole purpose for a very long time was to pro create. We are an advanced species, but not THAT advanced.
Not everyone has this goal, but a large population is driven by the fact that we are wired to pro create. This means attracting the opposite sex in order to continue our population. Biology doesn’t care if the planet is over populated or if we would prefer to move away from a sex focused society. However, that’s how we have been created or evolved (which ever way you want to see it).
I agree, it’s frustrating that our society so heavily values youth and beauty. But a big part of my frustration is personal. For me, I wish we could value other things over appearance but at the heart of that value I do believe is just the basic instinct to make more babies.
When I get triggered by how someone is dressing, I try to ask myself WHY. And it’s usually because I’m jealous. Just because I am no longer solely focused on having more kids, shouldn’t mean everyone else should cover themselves because of my priorities.
Also, I don’t believe it will stay this way forever. Maybe women are going from one extreme to another (modest to provocative), because they are finally able to be in control of their own bodies which is a rare occurance within the history of ‘man’. Things could mellow out and maybe new priorities will evolve. Or maybe it’s just too ingrained in our nature to want to attract others and that’s just life.
All of that is to say, imo you should reevaluate why this bothers you so much. I feel I gave a decent answer to a big question you posed: why do women feel inclined to show off?..So why is it such a big deal to you that they are showing off? Why do you feel we as a species should be more modest?
Your quote above sort of answers that question and I can totally understand it… but can’t we be both? Someone can wear whatever they want and also be something that doesn’t fit the predisposed judgemental narrative that might go along with it. There’s a whole meme about how the richest people these days look homeless and the the broke look rich. Which is a great example of how the way our society is set up, is holding a large population down. How our priorities are keeping us from living a more easy life (vs the perpetual rat race)… anyways, I personally think this is where we should be focusing on with what is “right or wrong” within society these days.
If you truly desire a world that has higher values than sex, we would need to go to the root of things: biology and the economy. Not how women are dressing.
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Well this has been a very interesting read.
To @KevinesKay A child of God, please remember.
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
James 4:12
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Lol I hear you. I’m not saying how women dress has nothing to do with it… but how women dress is a “down stream” issue.
I’m saying Kevin should go up stream and tackle where things are starting.
Have you heard that story of the two men fishing in a river, when suddenly they see a child being pulled down stream, drowning? The men go into the river and rescue the boy. They are exhausted when they see another child coming down the river, drowning. The two men rescue the child. Then more and more children come down the river, struggling to swim. Finally the one man gets out of the river and starts to walk up stream, the other man asks him where he’s going, and he says “I’m going up stream to find the person throwing these children into the river”.
Side note, totally not saying women wearing certain clothing is a comparable ‘problem’. Just maybe not where the focus should be…
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This topic brings up a lot of emotions in me so I will not put too much into it. My hands are literally shaking as I type but I think that it is important for me to have a voice too.
After being sexualized my whole life in the modeling industry I feel that it is all people, of both sexes who are guilty of condoning this type of “stylizing” of men and women. Suzy homemakers who bitch about hating the fact that women are looked at as sexual beings are still buying Vogue.
That’s all I have to say.
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It’s not about the phrasing but the motivation behind.