No More Mr. Nice Guy

Life in Recovery
1

I just read a book that completely has shattered my world and my paradigm. In a good sense. It explains why I’m a chronic relapser.

Why my relationships with women have suffered.

Why my sex life is poor.

Why my sex life was non-existent in my first marriage.

And why I became sexually anorexic with my second wife and my existing marriage.

And explains why the best years of my recovery was when I was celibate for 2 years while attending SLAA.

And why I seem to live an unhappy boring existence.

And why I’ve worked at a job that I detest for so long.

And it explains my relationship with religion and with God.

And it explains why I smile and laugh so much and act so goofy.

And why I make such inappropriate jokes.

And it explains why I’m such a people pleaser.

I avoid conflict.

And I never speak up for myself.

And why I’m emotionally and socially anorexic.

And why I’m unattractive to women.

And why I pursue pornography and prostitutes.

And why I white knuckled through most of my recovery for the past 30 years.

And why the 12 steps have never worked.

And why much religious teaching never worked.

I have just discovered that my disease, the root of my addiction, is what’s called nice guy syndrome.

The book, No More Mr Nice guy, was written by Dr Robert Glover. And although I’ve read many books about sexual addiction. Books by Mark Lasser and Patrick Carnes and all the 12-step literature from AA, SLAA, SA, SAA, Celebrate Recovery, Reformers Unanimous. All of them fall short when compared to Robert Glover’s book. In fact, Nice Guy syndrome is such a prevalent part of my sickness, that I’m shocked that this syndrome has not been discussed a whole lot in the sexual addiction community.

Dr Glover summarizes nice guy syndrome with having the following traits.

Nice guys are givers.

Nice guys fix and caretake.

Nice guys seek approval from others.

Nice guys avoid conflict.

Nice guys believed that they must hide their perceived flaws and mistakes.

Nice guys seek the “right” way to do things.

Nice guys repress their feelings.

Nice guys often try to be different than their fathers.

Nice guys are often more comfortable relating to women than men.

Nice guys have difficulty making their needs a priority.

Nice guys often make their partner their emotional center.

Nice guys are dishonest.

Nice guys are secretive.

Nice guys are compartmentalized.

Nice guys are manipulative.

Nice guys are controlling.

Nice guys give to get.

Nice guys are passive aggressive.

Nice guys are full of rage.

Nice guys are addictive ( usually sexually addictive).

Nice guys have difficulty setting boundaries.

Nice guys are frequently isolated.

Nice guys are often attracted to people or situations that need fixing.

Nice guys frequently have problems in intimate relationships.

Nice guys have issues with sexuality.

Nice guys are usually only relatively successful.

I’m telling you the truth. I am the poster boy of nice guy syndrome. I have every single one of these traits except for one. Nice guy syndrome is extremely common. Lots of men in this world suffer the same way that I do. But that wasn’t always the case. Nice guy syndrome has really only been around for the last 40 to 50 years.

I will be talking about this a lot. Because there’s enough in here for me to work on for the rest of my life. But one thing is for certain. If I don’t address this nice guy syndrome inside myself, it will continue to permeate throughout my whole entire being which will result in my chronic relapsing and white knuckling.

I expect this process to be messy. I might even re-repeat things that I’ve mentioned before, over and over again. This is going to take me to a different direction than what I’ve been currently doing. And it’s going to challenge some old ideas that I’ve held on to. It might even challenge some ideas on people reading this. And I encourage those people to disagree with me. I don’t expect this to turn out perfect. But it’s time that I stop being so weak, such a pushover, not having any sense of self, always going along with everyone else’s opinion and not having one of my own. I’m like a chameleon. It’s like I’m a double agent except that the only allegiance that I have is to the toxic shame within myself.

36 Likes
2

Isn’t it wonderful to gain self awareness? Nicely done and I’m happy for you.

1 Like
3

It is. I just wish it didn’t take me 30 years of recovery to get to that point.

But some guys never get it.

4 Likes
4

Some people not just guys. But yes. Take what you can get and work your ass off.

2 Likes
5

Was ready to post something about my readiness to relapse the first opportunity I got, when I saw and read this post first. Absolutely helpful and can relate big time. Just purchased the book and will arrive in a day or so. Thank you for sharing. I’m gonna earnestly try holding off relapsing. I really don’t want to be that guy with a poor sex life in marriage. Your story encourages me. Thank you again.

2 Likes
7

You mean women aren’t perfect?

As a nice guy syndrome guy, I worshiped women. I put them on a pedestal and I looked up to them. As a result, women often looked down on me.

In this thread, I will be discussing more about the behavior in men.

Because I believe that men and women have biological differences that impact the kind of problems they have in life.

I believe Nice guy syndrome normally affects men. I don’t see a lot of women being disqualified as potential partners and mates because they are too “nice”.

1 Like
8

Fair enough. I won’t disagree with you on your thread.

3 Likes
9

Chris, I can tell already from reading your posts that we have a lot in common. We should talk more.

10

A lot of relatable and recognizable stuff here Kevin. And a big overlap with my personality (problems) for which I’m doing group therapy now. I’m very glad you found this and hope and think this will be a fruitful path for you to follow. .

3 Likes
11

But if anyone wants to disagree anytime, go ahead. It’s time that I stop being so agreeable just to get everyone to like me. That’s a big characteristic of nice guy syndrome. Always walking on eggshells.

I need to welcome conflict, not avoid it.

It doesn’t mean that I go the opposite way and be a complete jerk.

I want to and need to talk this out and wrestle with it

7 Likes
12

Big learning point right there Kevin. I’m learning not to run away from every conflict I encounter. But not become an ass at the same time. Because I actually like being a nice guy, but not one that let people walk all over him or one that runs away from every opposition or conflict or any hard situation at all really. As an aside, the only time I really got into conflicts in the past was when I was drunk. And then I could get really nasty.

4 Likes
13

Let me share something that happened last week. My wife and I were intimate twice.

And that rarely happens. We’re talking about periods of abstinence lasting over 3 months. I’ve been sexually anorexic with my wife during our entire 15 year marriage. She’s complained about it a lot. And during sex, I have problems getting an erection.

So what happened last week? I simply became more direct and vocal about what I wanted. Instead of waiting for the right moment or being passive about my needs thinking that hugging, kissing, holding is going to automatically stir up the desire in both of us and it will magically lead to sex.

I simply said on Thursday, “I want to have sex.”
My wife replies, “REALLY!” She’s all excited. She’s never seen me like this. And because I was becoming aware of what I wanted, I had no problems with erection.

The following day, she asks me, “What can I do to make you want me like you did last night?”

And I replied, “This is something that I have to work on.”

And we did it again on Saturday. No erection problems.

5 Likes
14

I want to add more. As I’m looking back, my wife would often initiate sex and I would turn her down. “I’m too exhausted,” I would say. Yeah right. Too exhausted being concerned with everyone else except myself to even recognize what I truly want.

1 Like
15

The “nice” guy in me prohibits me to drink. I’ve tasted alcohol only a handful of times, and only sips.

As a nice guy Syndrome guy, I focus on making myself appear perfect so that women will find me attractive. And then I wonder why they don’t.

But I can truly relate to the rage thing. I bottle up my resentments and when it finally comes out, I’m Jekyll/Hyde. When I rage, I sound like the Macho Man, Randy Savage, about ready to kill someone.

I have thoughts of diabolical rage often everyday. When I hear about kids shooting down schools and men commiting mass senseless murders at community gatherings, I know why they do it. When one is at a state where he feels like there is nothing to lose, he can cause a lot of pain.

1 Like
16

It took me 40 years to grasp enough understanding of myself to get sober. There is no shame in wandering, there is learning, even if it doesn’t feel like it at the time. Glad you found something that truly resonates for you.

3 Likes
20

How did I get here?

Nice guy Syndrome guys are victims of abandonment. Now, abandonment can manifest in many different ways. But in my case, my abandonment issues are due to the result of my father physically leaving the home.

From now on, I’m going to abbreviate Nice Guy Syndrome as NGS.

I had a long talk with my mom almost 30 years ago when I first joined SAA. She mentioned that my first year of life was great. Although, my father was contemplating leaving a few years prior, he recommitted himself to my mom and my sister who was 4 years older than me. According to mom, he shared that he chose to stay. And that he wanted to be a good husband and a good father.

He eventually left us for another woman. Her name was Pat. She seemed like a tramp. She was a single mom with 4 kids with different men. I was 1 year old when he left…

He was still in my life. My sister and I visited him every other weekend. I don’t have any memories before 3, but I understand that at that tender age, I knew what was going on.

Children under 5 are 1) helpless and 2) egocentric.

At that age, abandonment is death. And because I’m egocentric, I develop a sense that something must be wrong with me. I believe that I’m bad, worthless, and unlovable. This is known as toxic shame.

It’s due to this toxic shame that I formed 3 strategies.

  1. I needed to medicate from the pain of the original event of abandonment. So I used sex fantasies at an early age.

  2. I needed to appear perfect so that the traumatic event doesn’t repeat itself.

  3. I needed to hide any character flaws. Otherwise, people will reject me.

It’s this paradigm, this distorted view of reality, that NGS guys hold onto throughout their life. As an NGS guy, I believe that if I’m “nice”, which means doing all the right things, coming off as perfect, and hiding my defects of character,

then I will get the love that I want, have my needs met, and live in a problem-free world.

But it doesn’t work. It’s a faulty paradigm. And a faulty paradigm leads to a faulty life.

I’ve learned about 4 core beliefs that sex addicts have to overcome from Mark Lasser back in 1993.

  • I am a horrible worthless person

  • No one will be around to meet my needs

  • Sex is equal to love

  • Sex is my most important need

This shows a lot of commonality with NGS.
At the time, focusing on my sex addiction seemed like the right option for me. What I wasn’t aware is that my sex addiction (and also my emotional, social, and love anorexia) we’re all by-products of my NGS and the toxic shame that it’s rooted in… Covered with my pride…

And this condition not only affects my sexuality, but every part of me, my whole personality is intertwined with NGS. And yet, as I did my fourth step with my sponsor, back in 1994, many of the positive, good traits I listed for myself comprised of my kindness, my patience, generosity, my smile, and my sense of humor. Yet, looking back, I’m aware that these were also simply by-products of my NGS.

Dealing with NGS means I have to deal with all of it’s behaviors, not just the sexual ones. If I just cut out the acting out, I’m still living in toxic shame. And it’s manifesting in my relationships, in my striving to be perfect, and in my own personal feeling of self-hatred and low self-worth. Thus, I continue to white knuckle until I give in and act out sexually.

And as an NGS GUY, my only strategy in response to relapse is to try harder. I believe that I must not have done it perfectly. Otherwise, I’d be sober. But who does a perfect program? Nobody.

My ex saw the damage before we split in 1997. She mentioned that something really bad must have happened to me when I was young. Because she saw me try harder than anybody she knew to do the program right. I was going to 5 meetings a week at that time. And yet I was still craving all the time and relapsing. My resolve to do the program perfect was just another extension of my NGS. And to be honest, the things I was doing to stop my behavior were just as bad as my behavior. Because all of it has been rooted in my NGS.

My ex was right, something bad did happen. My dad left, plain and simple. And it changed my paradigm to one that was faulty which has led to a faulty life.

6 Likes
21

I need to correct what I mentioned before. I said that NGS was not around 50 years ago. That’s not true. There have always been weak men with no sense of self; having low self esteem, trying to please everyone and constantly seeking validation from others, especially women. I said that this would get messy.

But I do believe that NGS is more common than ever before. Some things that have contributed to this I believe, are the following:

An increase in divorce.

A transition from an agricultural economy to a more urban culture. Previously, more men were working at home like on a farm, where they were continuously with their children. But later, a shift occurred where more men went off to work and spent less time at home with their families.

An increase in single mothers.

An increase in the absence of fathers in the home.

The rise of pornography in our culture.

The rise of radical feminism which sends a lot of negative messages to men. (Statements such as men are chauvinist pigs or dogs or misogynistic are quite common.)

1 Like
22

@KevinesKay

I’m totally gonna check into this book, my relationships suck, never married, but a serial monogamist I suppose.,

Ive decided to go the hookup culture route, and that had been successful before, in fact I have a lawyer hitting me up, obviously out of my league, but she knows what she wants.

1 Like
23

I’ve chased after that myself. I was not good at that. I bought a seduction manual years ago and used it to pick up women.

Here’s how the pickup artist tricks worked for me. Instead of attracting women on my own, I piggybacked off the feelings that other alpha guys previously created for these women.

And I got sex. I thought I was making progress towards love. I was even engaged once to a really beautiful girl I met in a club. But once they discovered my act, my hypocrisy, my fakeness, they were turned off. And they lost feelings for me just as quickly as they were turned on.

The idea of going back to a quick sex fix has always been enticing, but at the end, it’s meaningless. And it leads to a meaningless life. And it’s time that I stop trying to get validation from women and start getting validation from the only person that matters, myself.

If I don’t do that, women won’t love me. Because they won’t even really know me. I don’t even really know myself.

3 Likes
24

I’m read your entire thread and the more I read the more I can relate,

In a lot of my posts I reference my ex gf Jessie, which was a 4 year relationship that ended last year while I was in treatment,

Initially I thought was heading in the right direction, she’s 3 years older than I, has 2 college degrees, able to have good earning capacity, and carry on an intellectual conversation, initially we were just dating so to speak, hang out have sex and that was about it, we’d texted and talked on the phone when we were apart but only saw each other like one weekend a month. After about 4 months of this we became a couple and a few months later I moved in, both of us enjoy sex so it was a regular occurrence, however behind the scenes was a pardigam shift, while I remained myself, essentially a romantic type who would do simple thing to show my appreciation to her, She developed a control complex, and started to back away so I would chase her. It worked, but then I started to isolate which led to heavy drinking and drug abuse, multiple suicide attempts and complete dissatisfaction of my life, when we finally fought for the last time, she told me to get out., I did and out of spite I purposely went to her friends house, this girl wanted me from the day we met, got drunk and had sex with her, I felt guilty for my infidelity, but she believes it never happened.

We started counseling and it became you you you, she wanted to be in total control, I entered rehab and we started talking and working with my therapist after I made it clear that I refused to be walked on, and command respect she’s broke it off. Needless to say I blamed myself and tried to fix the relationship, problem was she’s in control, she cut off my phone my address and my bank you name it she cut it off. I still tried,

My one therapist pointed something out to me quite relatable to NGS,

He said you tend to get involved with women, who are “undesirable and undeserving of you” not very attractive, have no ambitions, have no qualities, and are by society’s standards the last girl you’d want to be involved with, they often have terrible dating pasts cause no guy worth their weight wants to be involved with them, then you come along and they feel for once they are in control and then they walk all over you. They know you won’t be physically abusive, or walk out on them so they do what‘ they want,it creates a world of anger, hurt and resentment, the relationship becomes toxic and it’s your fault when you walk away refuse to chase them.

As he put it the women I’ve dated should be grateful And appreciate me, not treat me like a doormat.

If i l Learned anything it’s that i refuse to allow anyone have that much control of my life, im not moving in with anyone until marriage, nor will I have my vasectomy reversed until that point. I also will avoid getting involved with the “less desireables” as my therapist called them.

Who am I?

I’m an educated man, with plenty of great qualities to offer, a parent a provider, a believer that a relationship should be two equals, no one has control, I am a provider, of good nature with plenty of redeeming qualities, just because life dropped me in the gutter, I shouldn’t be shopping there for a partner

5 Likes