I get why people don’t understand why I would find chasing after prostitutes appealing. It’s not real love. It’s a counterfeit. But for me, the counterfeit feels like the real thing.
My toxic shame leads me to believe that I’m so unlovable, so horrible and worthless, that no one will love me. So I think the only way I can get sex (which is love to me) is by force, or negotiation, or by paying for it. When I first got into porn, I really believed that this was all I needed, that it was going to satisfy me. I felt the same when my behaviors escalated to strip joints, massage parlors, prostitutes. But in the end, I’m left empty. It’s true, it’s not real love. And I’m also a few hundred dollars poorer.
I think about how this mindset impacts any relationship I’ve tried to initiate. Having this sense of low self-worth, I’ve come off to women as desperate, weak, and pathetic. Women want strong, confident men that are sure of themselves. Not someone that is constantly leaning on then for validation. Women want to lean on their men, not the other way around.
Like I said I grew up in a toxic household, and as it’s stated most of us choose to be 180* of our fathers. However others look at that behavior as acceptable and continue down the path their parents portrayed for them.
While you state, women want strong confident and someone to lean on, I hate the feeling of a slave/master relationship, my partner should be my equal, as we both bring different qualities into a relationship, it should be two lives intertwined as one, while building an empire together.
You stated previously you resented your wife for the things you had given up, such as your 12 step group, a job, working out etc. I can see this being a concern, where you felt to seek her approval, you decided to end things you enjoyed, to spend more time with her, or do family activities whatever,
I do believe that’s a toxic trait in any addict falls back to self care,while you should want to spend time with your spouse and family, it’s also important to maintain some of your own needs, healthy outlets, for me that’s always been difficult. People say I am totally much more in tune with myself when I’m working on music, but my whole life it was always how I can make the next buck doing it, and it starts becoming a monster Of it’s own.
Same with cars, I can walk into most dealerships and command top dollar for my skill set, while I love all things with wheels, I start to resent it when everyone thinks your their free mechanic, I don’t mind helping out changing a bulb or can you check my oil or something, but it grows old when they get an estimate for a job, and they want you to take your day off working on their car in the driveway, and when you say no. It’s a problem, I lost a friendship over refusing to swap an engine for peanuts, you want help sure, but I’m not gonna spend my day cranking out a motor when I can be enjoying my day off.
I think part of this journey is me setting boundaries, the book kinda points in that direction as well.
I heard another “nice guy” message in church today. My pastor actually wrote down the words,
“Put God first, put others second, and yourself last.”
The problem is that too many “nice guys” like myself are going to process those words with our toxic shame and interpret that to mean our needs don’t matter.
Next on my reading list will be
No More Christian Nice Guy by Paul Coughlin
and Wild at Heart by John Eldredge
My experience is showing me that much of my NGS has been reinforced by teachings from the modern church. By stuffing my own masculinity, and receiving this message that I must be this passive, kind, nice guy that avoids confrontation and takes no risk, I live a dead, boring life with little meaning, no drive, no ambition. In addition, my wife views me as this soft, recessive, male that takes no charge or leadership over many things. I misread scripture to support my NGS. I don’t realize that Jesus was not the nicest guy in the world. He said some very controversial things and He was not afraid to speak His mind.
But for myself, Christianity has been more about turning the other cheek, putting myself last, dying to myself because I don’t matter. I’m sure there is a term for this, but I’m going to call it Doormat Christianity.
And this flame within me wants to come out. But the only outlet it gets is through sexual acting out. I do not believe it’s a coincidence that a larger group of online porn users come straight from the Bible Belt. Nor am I surprised that over 50% of men in the church are actively struggling with porn use. And I’m not surprised that a significantly large percentage of Christian men addicted to porn never get to a place where true freedom is ever experienced.
I’m not saying that my NGS is a major part of my sex addiction.
I’m saying that my NGS IS the problem. My sex and porn addiction, and my social and emotional anorexia are all extensions of my NGS.
I shouldn’t be doing a sex addiction recovery program. I should be doing an NGS recovery program. I should be treating the root, not the symptoms.
I will be searching the Bible. And I will be tackling on some difficult scriptures that appear to support Doormat Christianity. But I’m presuming that if I search for their actual context and meaning, I will be able to receive a more accurate message of what it truly means to be a man of God.
This is a deep, honest and brave share. Can’t say much about NGS part but I do have 2 cents on Christianity.
Definitely. You often hear that Christians should “be more like Jesus” but the explanation what that means falls short. Since Christ did display what a healthy functional human being looks like, I’d study his nature and character.
A side note: the Eldredges are my favourite authors, hands down. I hope you enjoy Wild at Heart. I can truly recommend anything from them, especially the Beautiful Outlaw (about the character of Christ).
Have a good start for your week!
Disclaimer: this is a funny meme, with a bit of truth in it. However, it is not to be taken as a biblical truth or a religious view.
After reading Paul Coughlin’s book, “No More Christian Nice Guy”, I didn’t find it as applicable as Robert Glover’s book. But it was a good read. Paul Coughlin does a good job in dispelling my “doormat” Christianity mindset. He refers to several books in his work. One being, “Why Men Hate Going to Church” by David Murrow. I’m going to read that one when I finish “Wild at Heart”.
Worth a good read, I been working on it but slacking,
I also see a lot of myself in that book, but I also feel divided, like hey I like these things and want to do them to make me feel better, but then women find it attractive, so am I doing it for me or am I seeking acceptance? Fuck idk
Realized that my father wounds have run deep. And I’ve lived my whole life burying this wound real deep so I would never have to look at it.
I mean, I cannot imagine how heartless one would have to be to leave a wife and a tiny baby to be with another single mother of 4 kids with different fathers. The pain of what my father did to me was very real and had a tremendous effect on me.
Imagine a scenario where an alcoholic who also has a gambling problem goes to GA to treat his gambling addiction. Doing all the steps, making all the boundaries, to stop his gambling but never being fully aware of his alcoholism and how that’s contributing to the problem. Meanwhile, he’s constantly relapsing. He’s losing his savings. His life is being ruined before his eyes. His marriage is just destroyed. His recovery in GA does some help. His boundaries and Recovery also curb his alcoholism. Yet, he’s frustrated. Because he’s trying everything in his power to stop the gambling. But the gambling is not the primary addiction. It’s his alcoholism. For when he gets drunk he loses all control. And he ends up gambling. For he’s not aware that he only gambles when he’s drunk. Only when he treats the alcoholism is he able to treat the gambling.
That person is me. For so long I thought that the sex addiction was my primary addiction. But it’s not. I’m still having a hard time grasping this because the pull to act out is so incredibly strong. But I know 100% that my NGS is my primary. What am primarily I addicted to? Validation, Validation from everyone I guess. Stemming from toxic shame from an old father wound. I guess burying it deep to forget it even existed did not work. For my relapsing never went away. When acting out sexually, I’m always in my NGS.
I’m at 61 days porn free. I’m usually going to be pretty safe when I get within 3 days of a milestone. But the period between 4 and 7 days before a milestone, WATCH OUT! It’s like I forget everything. Nothing matters and I want to get my fix. I know a lot of it is based on my NGS. This feeling of low self-worth and the intention to self-fulfill a prophecy that says I will never change.
I’ve been reading, “Wild at Heart”, by John Eldredge. And I like it better than the last book by Paul Coughlin. Eldredge certainly reinforces the fact that NGS is not Christian and he encourages the concept of allowing God to heal those father wounds inside me. It’s a different approach than Glover’s, who emphasizes dependence on one’s self only.
I think both Glover and Eldredge speaking truth. While accepting that I need to demonstrate to myself that I have self-worth, I also see the value in leaning on God and placing my dependence on Him. I believe God has brought me this far already. He led me on this journey to uncover this deep wound within myself. I trust that He will be with me every step of the way.
I’m struggling to get through the first book I learned I need hard copies of books or I lose focus, I’m thinking of creating a pdf and taking it to staples or something to print out
I believe my alcoholism is a symptom of other factors, same with my acting out with strings of sexual partners, I never identified as a sex addict because I don’t use porn, prostitutes, or massage parlors, it’s always females who I pursue for sexual relationships and that’s the gist of it, the more I dive in the more I realize it’s not healthy, I also feel shamed when I have to tell people how many sexual partners I had, which I don’t know I just say a lot, I never sat down and figured it out nor do I want to.
Oo, I haven’t read wild at heart in years! Should maybe revisit I highly recommend also Captivating from the Eldredges. It’s like the female version of wild at heart.
Reviving this thread because it’s time. And it’s pertinent to my life now.
Anyways, after applying Allen Carr’s EasyWay method to my path, I’ve had some amazing results.
Only to find myself experiencing another bout of cravings lately. I’m certainly showing improvement. I experienced 60+ days of no cravings! That’s amazing! It’s just that if I understand how little value porn actually has, why am I craving it at all?
Upon watching the above video by Alexander Grace, I realized that my subconscious is definitely not where I want it to me. Alexander asks the viewer to put himself in the same position. Would I accept a booty call from this girl?
And my subconscious is clearly yelling,
HELL YEAH!
On a conscious level, I understand that such a decision would be completely wrong for me. Giving myself away like that would be negatively impacting my own value as a person.
And yet the cravings that I’ve been having are not towards viewing internet pornography, but to act out with a real person, and not just a hookup, but with a prostitute. So I’ve contemplated not just giving myself away, but paying her for it as well. Such a behavior would impact my sense of value even more. Why am I contemplating such a destructive behavior that also puts myself at risk of disease, of losing my marriage, of legal consequences, of financial setback?
I’ll tell you what. It’s shame. Toxic shame.
I recall the first time that I acted out with a prostitute was when I was about 6 months into recovery with SAA. I put my hands to my face saying to everyone there that I must hate myself. Why else would I do such a sabotaging, destructive act to myself?
They say that sobriety is the gift that keeps on giving.
Well, toxic shame is the curse that keeps on taking.
It’s time that I redirect my attention towards this nasty root. No matter how strong my recovery from porn is, toxic shame will continue to undermine and sabotage me. Dealing with shame is not going to be as Easy Peasy as porn, but I understand now that my NGS recovery doesn’t have to be perfect. I need not be afraid that an imperfect NGS path of recovery will not ultimately lead to a relapse in porn. I overcompensated myself before; being overly argumentative and walking into conflict without any regards to other’s feelings. I’m sorry about that. And I need to make amends shortly.
I started working out again. It had to happen. It’s working. I enjoyed a level 3 day following. I will continue to demonstrate to myself that I’m a person with value.
After finishing, Wack by Noah Church, recommended by @deep, my next book will be Healing the Shame that Binds you by John Bradshaw. That was recommended on this thread,
Honestly, I and this former member did not see eye to eye on a lot of things. But I’m grateful she posted this recommendation.
@olivia, I still plan to read Captivating. I did find Wild at Heart useful. Thank you.
Hey Kev, I’m happy you’re reading HSBY next, was going to recommend it to you. I haven’t got round to it yet but it’s on my list so I’m looking forward to reading your discussion of it.
I’m sorry read about the cravings. It must be hard. You’re not of no value. But that’s just a thought, not a feeling, right. We all have intrinsic value but I’m very familiar with the feeling of utter worthlessness, it’s been with me a long long time. Sending you a hug.
I am doing psychoanalysis as I often mention and I encounter my feelings of worthlessness and my fear of growing and being good there. A lot, recently. I cannot think of a better tool to help me face myself, I certainly couldn’t do it on my own as well. It’s necessary to project ourselves onto another to see what it is we project.
I wonder if you would have the chance to do an analysis, if it’s feasible to you. I would not be able to sing its praises enough and I often think that with your willingness to question, examine and readiness to challenge yourself, you would benefit immesurably. Just a thought.
Those cravings I referred to have since passed. Tbh, they were nothing compared to what I was experiencing before last year. Craving almost everyday for stretches over 200 days is not a good long term strategy, but I honestly didn’t have any more ideas on what I could do different for myself. Discovering and addressing my shame as well as switching my method from a 12-step approach to an EasyWay path has been a lot more effective.
For most days, sobriety is fun and actually easy for me now. That’s the truth.
Psychoanalysis is a great idea. Thank you for mentioning that. If I had money or a great health plan, I would consider right now. At this point, I’m going to have to stick to self-validating actions for myself. But my financial situation may change, and it will be something to look into.
I’m supposed to workout this morning, my wife brought it up that she didn’t see me exercise yesterday or the day before. She wants me to take better care of myself after witnessing other men my age pass away. I’m 50. So I’ve got her 100% complete support on self-care for myself.
I highly recommend also Captivating from the Eldredges. It’s like the female version of wild at heart.