It happens, but those are often predatory assholes using the ‘magic’ of their time sober to hit on people in a weak state. I don’t know what you mean by ‘believe in,’ I clearly stated I believe in anyone’s right to believe in anything that doesn’t hurt others, so your arrest at insulting me fails through your terrible use of language. Do I think that any unhealthy relationship, regardless of sobriety, should be pursued, is a no-brainer. Do I believe that people should not get into relations in their first year of sobriety, no, I think it is bullshit. Just because people get sober, doesn’t change the fact they may be attracted to someone, they may meet their life partner, they may get fucked over by an asshole but that’s life. The big book doesn’t mention anything about this, and shouldn’t.
Hitting on wasted, helpless or weak people is vicious and pathetic. We have laws to try and combat it.
So while I don’ really get what you mean by belief in a thirteenth step, this is my reply.
Stephen
Dear Stephen
Are we policing posts for language and grammatical errors now? If so I can point out the incorrect use of different commas within your post.
In regards to 13th stepping: You’re asking a female new to recovery to inbox you to speak about your ‘recovery methods’, this isn’t appropriate, why don’t you share with the wider group instead?
Kind Regards
Darren (BA, MA)
@DarrenUK @StephenUys These were skewing off the original topic, and unnecessarily personal. Let’s please stay on point and keep it civil.
Apologies- I just wish these keyboard warriors were as brave face to face 
He has 54 years sober, and completely hates the dogmatic approach to AA.
Now THAT is fascinating.
I agree, that’s wild!
It is, but I would say 70% of the AA groups here (roughly 700 a week pre covid) has had his influence over the years. A very unique AA experience from what I have seen.
There was one way back when I first started
Yup it’s been done a couple times. Don’t forget that when you are curious about something you can always search for the keywords!
Here’s a link to one we did last year.
https://talkingsober.com/t/sober-book-club-on-zoom/111607
We did it via zoom. I didn’t end up participating as much as I’d like but I’d say it’s worth trying again!
I loved that book club! I admit I only came to a few sessions but they were fantastic. Would happily join another one @BroccoliHighKicks
Actually @BroccoliHighKicks - funny enough - I am currently doing a (virtual) book club with a friend of mine. She and I are reading his first major book, Maps of Meaning, which dates back to before he was (ahem) a cause célèbre.
The executive summary is it’s interesting as a cultural study. It is quite long winded and frankly… there’s a lot of superfluous verbiage. But it is interesting how he ties things together in his argument about possible origins of evil / deviant behaviour.
I am just beginning this audio course and I would looooooove to study it with some friends. It isn’t technically a “book” but it’s organized into sections and the lecturer is phenomenal. It’s all about how stress is part of life, and what helps us isn’t so much the reduction of stress, but instead the conscious “tuning” of our attitude & our responses to it.
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/how-to-make-stress-work-for-you
That is my exact situation as well 
Ok sounds good. Let’s keep in touch - if we remember to. 
Good thanks! About to step into a meeting so will give a short reply & check back later.
Highlights:
- marriage counselling saved me from divorce in the fall
- looking at buying a business; it’s intimidating but also exciting
- plugging away on day to day life here in wintery Canada - the snow is perfect outside right now - here’s a recent night view:
How about you?
That’s good stuff. It’s nice to know what we can control, and what is less controllable (even when it still matters to us). Sobriety is something we can do for ourselves out of love and care - and that gives us strength to “roll with the punches” on everything else. 
I think that you could still have a sponsor even though you are away. You would just need to find one that was willing to work long distance with you. There are people in Canada that have sponsors in the States because that’s who they clicked with and whose recovery they really respected.
The only limitations in life are the ones you put on yourself. Being open to new ways and ideas has been amazing. And for the record I am not a die hard NA’er… its not NA or you will fail. I go to SMART meetings, I checkout Recovery Dharma meetings, I respect people who find recovery in anyways that works from them and I have never voice differently. All that I can share though is what has worked for me and what has not. What didn’t work for me was trying to do this without a program, with only family and dr support. What has worked for me thus far is working a very solid program of recovery everyday, having a sponsor, working the steps, having alot of physical and mental health support and support from my friends and family.
I have to admit it gets a bit frustrating when people continue to be wilful and overly opinionated about 12 step programs as people are fucking dying from addiction everywhere. Honesty who gives a fuck about dogma when someone’s life might be saved? It is what you make it.
You know I love the steps and work them myselves as well, so I don’t consider myself overly opinionated about them.
However, to quote you :
You and I both do apparently, else we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
In my opinion, those who tell me I can’t work the steps without a sponsor, are telling me I can’t eat macaroni without cheese. It’s just another custom habit that has grown into a dogma.
Exactly - yet the dogmatic approach of our traditions sometimes keeps people away from the rooms… if people’s life might be saved by macaroni without cheese, then why not let them eat it ?
In this perticular case, I see a girl on here asking whether she can do a step 4 without a sponsor. Of course you can, start with it ! Work it, and along the road it will reveal itself whether you want a sponsor or therapist or whatever to help you move forward.
But don’t wait for a sponsor or whatever to start !
That is exactly what I reject. See, in my opinion a sponsor will never really know me. All they can work with, is théir interpretation of my stepwork (which in itself is solely an interpretation of my own mind).
How could someone, not being able to meet me several times in person, to understand my body language (or lack of it…), my surroundings, my life, “read” me ?
If that would really work, then why are autists even trying to compensate their lack of understanding of those important factors ?
All a sponsor long distance can and would do, is tell me hís interpretation of my addiction… which basically reminds me of a certain psycholgist telling me I should just accept things I denied, simply because the DSM opposed my own experiences regarding my own life.
Exactly. For example, believing you can’t do the steps without a sponsor…
I agree you can’t do them all alone though - I needed a psychologist in the proces. I need my NA group. I need other autists. For every single aspect of my life I struggle with, even the slightest bit, I need input from others. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be a sponsor.
I prefer input from many different people.
One final remark on the “sponsor tradition” - it’s 2022, yet still the traditions state I can’t get a female sponsor… 
In some aspects, our traditions are just outdated.