On. This. Fucking. Planet.
Overlooking sexual abuse is a global issue across continents and cultures. Western countries and cultures have definitely improved in the last 50 years. However, that is a short transition time when you look at how long it has taken for sexual abuse to be introduced into legal systems (I’m no expert on that part, law practitioners are welcome to chime in). Like Matt said,
There are still places in this world where rapist (usually men) are not tried but blame is put on victims for “enticing”, “for sleeping around” etc (usually women) and who are then even executed.
So saying that the content of that meme is stupid is like spitting in the face of the thousands (mostly) women who get no justice. But surely you are entitled to have your opinion.
A few reads to for food of thought.
Up until 2017, let me repeat, 2017 a raped woman might end up being forced to marry the perpetrator.
Holy shit, this must be the first time I disagree with you. Everything you said makes complete sense and I’d agree with it all if it weren’t for one factor. I have autism so I read things differently than “reasonable” readers.
I’ve read a little further and see there are more who read it that way and question the “some” assumption. Matt, you gotta realize that not nearly everyone has had the same education as you, so maybe you shouldn’t say that reasonable men read it as some. To me it seems as if you call me and the others who assumed “all” unreasonable.
And one thing I’d like to add. It was a rant of something that has been bothering me for years. So red herrings are definitely going to be in there without me even realising.
Matt, I appreciate you a lot, but I don’t think you should assume that all/some reasonable people… I don’t know how to finish that sentence. I don’t know if you implied all or some. Fuck, your statement has got me doubting myself now. If I’d say men are pigs, I’d imply “all”. But now you’re saying that it should be assumed “some”? My brain hurts
The main point of discussion seems to be “all men” vs. “some men” with regards to the content of the meme I posted. The issue addressed by the meme is the fact in many places, cultures and points in history rape victims have carried punishment for what was done to them and perpetrators were let off the hook, unchallenged in their ways. That mindset is evident in some posts OTT that were first moved to this void from another thread.
We live in “the now” and regard often the generation(s) that exist now. Instead of thinking “all men in county x” the issue here is that patriarchical structures have (had) such tendency.
Language can never be perfect since the people using it are imperfect. Don’t let technicalities keep you from seeing the heart of the matter. If you’re feeling offended, that’s ok. Maybe ask yourself why does this offend me? What does it touch or challenge in me?
Sometimes it’s a road to a mature self discovery.
Sometimes we’re afraid and oblivious to admit that the shoe fits.
One man would be enough. It’s absolute bullshit if men doubt, silence, question and talk over your or anyone else’s experiences.
For me it’s big ego…
I don’t know how. I don’t know how I should respond. And usually my feeling offended takes over. It’s something I seriously want to change. Do you have any advice on it? Or anyone else?
Always the oppressor group is the one that has the possibility and tools to change the unequal, abusive situation. In the current system victims are commonly blamed and that dynamics appears on a smaller scale in everyday life. Every man is part of this system and every man has the possibility to change it on some level. For starters, by accepting and facing the fact that this oppression exists, showing compassion and listening.
There isn’t really a right way or a wrong way I don’t think.
But, if you want to stop reacting from a place of anger, defensiveness etc, then the first step is noticing when you are doing it. When you can see it happening you can start to bring awareness to it, maybe even a sense of curiosity… Why am I reacting in this way? What am I hoping to achieve? A question I am trying to ask myself more is ‘do I want to be right or do I want to be happy?’ (thanks @Kareness!).
Sometimes we still react from that place, that’s ok. We are humans and we are not perfect. We have emotions and good days and bad days. Trying to be kind to ourselves when we fall short of our own expectations is just as important as trying to be kind to others.
This is stuff I have learned from mindfulness, meditation and yoga stuff I have done anyway. And stuff I am trying to put into practice more
What I said is, it doesn’t - and can’t - mean “all men”. This type of phrasing - omitting a quantifier (some, all, no, none, etc) - is widely practiced and understood without argument, as in the phrase “I’m allergic to dogs” [except for Samoyeds, poodles, and a few other breeds - but that detail is understood by the listener, who knows from experience that different people react differently to different dogs]; I mentioned “Computers are a pain in the ass” (obviously not all computers all the time; see above). There are many, many others.
You don’t have to be “educated” to understand this. Life experience teaches this. And we all get on fine, regularly understanding the word “some” is intended.
All communication assumes certain basic knowledge on the part of the listener. To fixate on the absence of the word “some” here - when we do not bat an eye at its absence if we’re talking about dogs or computers - is to introduce an unhelpful, unnecessary distraction into a crucially important conversation; that distraction is an evasion of the true problem, it silences the important talk about the experience of millions of women worldwide. When we men get all huffy and pedantic about introducing “some” here, it’s one more example of how we
We have work to do to do a searching, fearless inventory of ourselves as men. We have to be aware of what (some/enough of) our forebears and peers have done (some/enough of the time). We still occupy most of the positions of leadership and influence in the world and we need to speak up and be proactive, and make clear that we recognize this history of exploitation and abuse and that it has to stop. This is our responsibility as men (all of us); it is not women’s responsibility. (This is important - many women have experienced abuse or trauma because of this history, and it is often painful or even retraumatizing to speak about it or give advice. They may not even know what advice to give. There is considerable information and advice online, in TED talks, in articles, and from many, many other reliable sources.)
We need to be better men. As Tomek notes,
I am deeply grateful to the men who have chimed in here. It is certainly true that I have responded with some challenges to some specific points here but every single one of these men has made clear that they see the problem of the disregard and abuse of (too many) women, and that they object to it, strongly: @anon89207786 @anon84416494 @CaptAZ @Fury @Tomek @Conor689908
(Forgive me I may have missed some names - if so please know I mean you too!)
As Jan noted,
If one man is enough for there to be a problem, then one man is enough for there to be (the beginning of) a solution.
We have at least six men here. That’s a good start for building a future of justice, equality, and respect.
Maybe we should stop getting so hung up on the “most, some, all, many” thing. Awful people are everywhere. Regardless of gender/race/culture/country. If you are fortunate to live in a place where gender equality is actively being changed- consider yourself lucky, and be a part of that change. In more underdeveloped countries or places where old culture and thinking is still the norm- I feel for the women who cannot get justice, as well as the men who are living genuine lives and treat women with respect while others are harming. But this unfortunately is everywhere. Be a good person, treat others with respect, and advocate that others do the same.
Those who get defensive I believe do so because no one wants to be lumped into a category when they themselves are not contributing to the problem.
As far as men and women being friends? I’ve had many male friends over the years, some I found later had other feelings I was not aware of, some are just friends. I can’t control who feels what. As long as they respect boundaries.
Just my 2 cents.
I’m sorry - I think I may have been unclear there. I was being ironic: me saying “Are we clear” was in reference to how the whole language “debate” here is unclear and distracting. My point was that we know the original meme could not have meant “all men” - any one of us knows that not all men have done that; even if we limit it to ourselves and we know just ‘I haven’t done that’, it means there’s at least one man who hasn’t done it - and for the same reason it can’t be “no men” (obviously at least one man has done it - there are proven cases of this where the man himself has admitted it).
So if it can’t be “all men” or “no men”, then the only options left for the phrase “Men …” must be “Some men” or “Most men”. As you yourself observed, the idea that it’s “most men” (the majority of men) is disturbing and likely not true.
If are offended by a meme that calls out men regarding sexual endeavors you clearly need to check your own behavior. You’re not a man, you’re a boy.
Real men saw that meme and knew it didn’t apply to them. They knew that meme is based in a lot of truth. They knew that women have to deal with a lot more shit than will ever understand.
Also, real hypocritical of a few of you to get so offended when I’ve seen your previous posts telling other people to stop being so offended.
Specially to edited to preserve the post. @eke sad face
